eclectic 1/14/2013 2:51:04 PM ReportI agree with this comment, and have been wondering why it has not come up before this:
"But I also believe that when the school boards negotiated contracts over the years (increasing pay 25 percent over the past 12 years), benefits, pension [and] sick days, it came with the understanding that although you are not compensated directly for extracurricular activities such as sports or tutoring, the generous pay and time off was the tradeoff."
MrJWall 1/14/2013 3:01:42 PM ReportPay them what they want! I still have memories of most of my teachers in my youth and high school years-they are a big influence on all our children. A happy teacher will be a good teacher to our kids-no?
m_grb 1/14/2013 3:07:25 PM ReportThis is one side of the story (that I agree with). The other side is Bill 115. The big fight is against Bill 115 which was a shameful way of undoing what needed to be undone.
m_grb 1/14/2013 3:08:05 PM ReportThis is one side of the story (that I agree with). The other side is Bill 115. The big fight is against Bill 115 which was a shameful way of undoing what needed to be undone.
SPOCK-62 1/14/2013 3:11:11 PM ReportI have always believed that some professions such as educators and doctors, should reap the benefits of becoming one. Teachers , I think, should be one of the highest paid professions. They are who we all count on for the future of all. That said, I think also , their qualifications should be highly scrutinized and only those that have potential to become "good teachers" Should get to have those jobs. The good ones aren't in it for the money and benefits. But they sure deserve them.
Number One Son 1/14/2013 3:31:33 PM ReportWhile I have been opposed to the teacher's plight, I cannot let comments like this go unopposed because it hurts the opposition to the teachers that the informed person has acquired.
J Coulis says, ....I have a daughter in Grade 9 who cannot afford to miss a day of school right before exams - it could mean the difference between passing a class and repeating.
She struggles with most classes.
She is the kid that needs that extra attention that teachers used to provide.
#1 Son says, ..... this is a lame preamble to try to support J Coulis's opinion, .... a parent has some responsibility in assuring the success of their child, .... grade 9 subjects can't be beyond the comprehension of a parent.
J Coulis says, .... Now the math:
• 52 weeks a year
• Eight weeks for summer break
• Two weeks for Christmas break
• One week for march break
• One week for statutory holidays
• 40 weeks of work per year
• 40 weeks x 5 days per week = 200 days per year
• 200 days x 6 hours per day = 1,200 hours per year
So, a teacher is under contract to work 1,200 hours per year, approximately.
At $75,000 per year this works out to $62.50 per hour.
#1 Son says, .... an immediate attempt to skew some figures, .... something tells me you could teach your daughter some math if you really believe what you say. The reality is that teachers are paid for basically an 7.5 to 8 hour day. Their pay is spread over the entire year including the lavish days off that you award them, so the hourly rate is not that high. The entry level teacher does not receive $75,000.00 per year.
J Coulis says, .... Yes, I agree that it can be difficult.
I could not do it.
#1 Son says, ... your attempt at sarcasm is well noted, but does little to substantiate your cause.
J Coulis says, ....Yes, I agree teachers are important to our standards of living in Canada.
Yes, I agree teachers should be compensated accordingly.
Yes, I also agree the Liberals did a poor job of dealing with the situation.
#1 Son says, ..... so now your are preparing your mouth to receive at least one, if not two, of your feet.
J Coulis says, .... But I also believe that when the school boards negotiated contracts over the years (increasing pay 25 percent over the past 12 years), benefits, pension [and] sick days, it came with the understanding that although you are not compensated directly for extracurricular activities such as sports or tutoring, the generous pay and time off was the tradeoff.
#1 Son says, .... your claimed pay increase amount to about 2% per year, which is not out of the norm for any unionized profession. Assumed understandings are not part of collective agreements, .... that is why they are called "contracts". Withdrawing extracurricular activities is fully within their right.
J Coulis says, .... I do believe that most teachers got into the profession because they enjoy the work and they believe they can make a difference, and that education is the most important part of a child's development.
#1 Son says, ..... How naive can you be. People enter an occupation for one thing, ... a career that will support them in retirement, .... enjoyment and making a difference are only ideological goals by the elite few.
J Coulis says, .... To me clubs, sports, class trips are as important as any class subject and by denying kids this you are giving up on everything that made you become a teacher in the first place.
I'm not mad at the teachers; they are just doing as they must, listening to a union who has lost touch with reality.
I'm mad at the union for using kids as human shields in their last stand at defending an outdated model to workers’ rights.
#1 Son says, .... so now your true colours come out. You are anti-union. Comments like this make me realize that it isn't only our youth that is uneducated.
J Coulis says, .... Sam Hammond is an activist; he lives for the fight, not for the result.
When the Elementary Teachers’ Federation of Ontario announced an illegal strike/day of protest, what they are saying is: "My right to strike is more important than a child's education."
#1 Son says, .... although I have stated before that I doubt the sincerity of the teacher's mantra of "the students are important to us", the right to strike IS important to the kids. Without this right, they will be entering a world of slave labour.
It's time for the teachers to take action - action against a union that is acting like a spoiled child, kicking and screaming until they get what they want.
#1 Son says, ... I am glad the teacher's have more sense than you do to support their union. I retract my earlier comment that you might be able to teach your grade 9 daughter.
J Coulis says, ... Things are not that bad, and if everyone does a little bit, things will get better, but we all know they can't continue the way they are now.
Please go back to doing what you love, why you took this career on, why you do this job.
Go back to teaching they kids, go back to coaching basketball, go back to helping those kids that might not make it without that extra bit of help after school.
And if you’re teaching for the money and not for the kids, please just go away.
#1 Son says, .... your last comment says it all with regard to the intelligence of your letter. You support slave labour now. I am glad people like you have left the Soo.
ryeandcoke 1/14/2013 3:32:51 PM ReportWhere exactly did he get 6 hours per day? That would mean that teachers only work 9-3. I'm pretty sure that they are at school well before 9 and stay later than 3. As well a base salary for teachers is $40,000. I'm surprised Soo Today would publish such stupidity.
learningaswego 1/14/2013 3:35:57 PM ReportThey are one of the highest paid professions. They are also one of the few careers where you get regular increases in pay, simply for added years of experience - and this is completely above and beyond, and OUTSIDE of what is negotiated for annual increases.
The labour cost of education has increased dramatically in the past few years, due mainly to spineless politicians in bed with teachers' unions; caving in to their demands in exchange for votes.
Yet, during the same time, the number of students in schools has decreased dramatically.
How in he11 can anyone - with an ounce of honesty, not see that this would be a huge problem, for any government trying to be responsible with taxpayers' money?
Tramparific 1/14/2013 3:41:58 PM ReportI wonder if this persons knows a teacher personally. Does he know of anyone else that goes into work an hour before work begins (children in class) or stays 2.5 hrs later after the children leave? When he gets home does he get behind closed doors so that he can prepare his work for the next day, sometimes until 11:00 p.m.? This done so that children are not left to their own devices while the teacher prepares for the next day lessons. How about out of town field trips - no overtime pay for teachers that do this. In this instance I am talking about a single teacher. The married ones have to fit a husband and their own kids into the mix as well. There are good and bad in every profession. I honestly believe most of our teachers sit on the good side. Like the saying goes, walk in their shoes before criticizing them.
!@# 1/14/2013 3:44:59 PM Report#1 son you are an IDIOT.....slave labour please....it's 2013!! Who told you slave labour, your UNION!! I'm not in a Union but try to fire me...as long as I do my job..well...The Ministry of Labour has my back....the days of UNIONS are numbered!! You are in Canada remember...ministry of labour now protects against falsely being dismissed!! Hate unions...what their intention used to be and the reason why they rose up in the first place....is not their purpose now!! You know this and so does everyone else. You seem brainwashed??
ryeandcoke 1/14/2013 3:47:48 PM ReportI know a couple teachers personally. THOSE REPORT CARDS THAT ARE GIVEN TO YOUR KIDS QUARTERLY. THEY DON'T COMPLETE THESE IN CLASS. THEY DO THEM AT HOME. FYI
lilmsmay 1/14/2013 4:03:54 PM ReportCoulis, well said.
Canna D. Yenn 1/14/2013 4:04:47 PM ReportYour Math is flawed:
I certainly was not in it for the money, however, somehow I feel a first reaction may be “Yah, yah, yah, so what! I’ve heard all this BS before!”
It seems to be a common retort of those who care not to listen.
I do not speak for all teachers, however, for many of us, perhaps you could factor in some missing data, as time spent on preparation, research, assessments, evaluations, interviews, donated time, and non-claimable out-of-pocket expenses spent on our classroom supplies, equipment, and further education.
I am not complaining, but do want you to know, as an example, that between 1992 and 2001 I did not receive an increase in take-home pay due to such nonsense as a social contract, ministry austerity practices and union concessions. Factoring in my voluntary, non-claimable time and classroom expenses over 26 years of teaching, my take-home average was $8.72 per hour.
lucyp 1/14/2013 4:16:00 PM ReportTo the individual who wrote this...listen to Yenn...because what ever you are writing is a laugh...when the government wants to take away your hard earned union stuff...lets hear you cry
Number One Son 1/14/2013 4:17:59 PM ReportCanna D. Yenn, .... it is statements like your that cost the loss of any credibility that teachers may have built. $8.72 per hour, ..... get real.
sbjef 1/14/2013 4:19:14 PM Report• 52 weeks a year
• Eight weeks for summer break
(actually its more like 6. They have things to do once the kids are gone and go in a week early to prepare lesson plans and their classroom)
• Two weeks for Christmas break
• One week for march break
• One week for statutory holidays
(as does everyone else. This should not even play into a "teacher perk"
• 40 weeks of work per year
(actually 43)
• 40 weeks x 5 days per week = 200 days per year
(43 weeks x 5 days per week = 215 days per year)
• 200 days x 6 hours per day = 1,200 hours per year
(215 days x lets be fair..say average 8 hours a day but anyone that has a teacher friend or family member is well aware its more. But for the sheer stupidity of this calculation we will use 8. = 1720)
So, a teacher is under contract to work 1,200 hours per year, approximately.
(Real world calculation = 1720)
At $75,000 per year this works out to $62.50 per hour.
(Lets be realistic here. 75,000 is after years of dedication and is totally skewing the figures. Lets be fair and average the salary at 50,000. So 50,000 a year, that works out to 29,00/hr.
So basically we are paying our teachers the going rate of a low grade labourer or store manager. Yes I know, someone else can come along and skew my figures as well. Go ahead. I am just trying to make a point at how ludicrous this letter is.
Sam C 1/14/2013 4:29:14 PM Reportlearningaswego... "They are one of the highest paid professions."
First: Uh, what? Not sure what other comparisons you have made to arrive at that conclusion.
Second: Indeed, it is a "profession." Not a job. When you make the comparison (see the first point) be sure to compare with other professionals.
Third: You really don't know of other occupations where employees get pay increases simply for years of experience?
To aid in your research, follow this link:
http://www.workingincanada.gc.ca/home-eng.do?lang=eng
Click on the "Wages" icon and enter an occupation to see the expected salary range by province.
Sam C 1/14/2013 4:34:14 PM ReportBetter still, enter your postal code (or ANY Sault postal code) to see a list of occupations and salary ranges for the Sault. Very interesting.
Canna D. Yenn 1/14/2013 4:56:49 PM Report#1… I’m not here to sacrifice the credibility of any teacher; I have the data and was just making a point based on my figures.
My first full-time teacher salary was just under $13 000 per year. My last year (after 26 years) was just over $70 000 per year. My take-home pay was about 75% of those yearly salaries and I consistently worked about 1300 non-paid hours per year beyond what my contract stipulated.
Subtract from that the time and money I spent on non-compensated supplies, equipment, training and supervision.
farmer 1/14/2013 5:02:49 PM ReportIn response to article ...
I am not surprised loyal readers are still and continue to be near sighted and disuss/argue wages, THIS IS NOT THE REASON FOR TEACHER OPPOSITION, IT IS BILL115 WHICH IS THE SOURCE OF THE POLITICAL PROBLEM
... and further the secondary panel has not and will not have any days out of classes so none of the valuable days will be missed prior to exams
...but I wouldnt expect to read anything less here; people please see and understand what this government is attempting to do, rather than bashing educators rally against the unconstitutional action of the Liberals
...please read between the lines and get it together
Johnedater 1/14/2013 5:03:31 PM ReportThey do work hard and do go above & beyond so let's lighten up a bit the following UNTRUE cute story!
Did you hear about the teacher who was helping one of her class pupils put on his boots?
He asked for help and she could see why. Even with her
pulling and him pushing, the little boots still didn't want to go on.
By the time they got the second boot on, she had worked up a sweat.
She almost cried when the little boy said, 'Teacher, they're
on the wrong feet.' She looked, and sure enough, they were.
It wasn't any easier pullin the boots off than it was putting them on.
She managed to keep her cool as, together, they worked to get
the boots back on, this time on the correct feet.
He then announced, 'These aren't my boots.'
She bit her tongue, rather than get right in his face and scream, '
Why didn't you say so? ' like she wanted to.
Once again she struggled to help him pull the ill-fitting boots off his little feet.
No sooner had they gotten the boots off when he said, 'They're my brother's boots.
My Mum made me wear 'em.'
Now she didn't know if she should laugh or cry. But she mustered up what grace and
courage she had left to wrestle the boots on his feet again.
Helping him into his coat, she asked, 'Now, where are your mittens?'
He said, 'I stuffed 'em in the toes of my boots.'
She will be eligible for parole in three years.
Ski-Dude 1/14/2013 5:04:51 PM ReportFor accuracy on the true cost of teachers you have to include benefit costs. This is where the teachers really pull ahead.
MrJWall 1/14/2013 5:09:23 PM ReportCheck out the suicide rate and substance abuse rate for all professions? Being a teacher isn't as easy as it appears--it can be very stressful and feelings of ungreatefulness at times! These are people that are a big part of our childrens lives when we are not with them!! They deserve a lot higher pay and respect than that they are given!! They put their hearts and souls into the students and the time off is very well deserved as they have their own families or lives they have to keep balanced and their love too!! Call me dummy if ya want--i really don't know any teachers-it is just what I sense and believe.
JoyD 1/14/2013 5:17:12 PM ReportWe trust teachers with the minds and bodies of our children. They educate them, babysit them, encourage them to succeed, worry about their well being. not only for 6 hours a day but all day all the time. They inform parents about things that we may have not observed in behaviors and education.
Which one of us can babysit 25-35 children at one time and educate and socialize them in the process?
right wing 1/14/2013 5:20:39 PM Report"#1 Son says, ..... How naive can you be. People enter an occupation for one thing, ... a career that will support them in retirement, .... enjoyment and making a difference are only ideological goals by the elite few."
I really hope #1 son is not a teacher.
To those that continue to whine and cry about the "extra" time teachers spend doing "whatever".
You knew this going into the profession.
Trying to drape yourself with a cape of heroism now is pathetic.
It would be like a plumber complaining that he has to plunge a toilet during a work day...no shit! (pun intended)
It's part of the profession.
...and lets be real folks, teachers in Ontario make a very good living.
When all benefits are considered on top of the wage there is nothing to cry about in this department.
Bill 115 is to be repealed is it not?
So why is the 115 drum still being played.
tronx 1/14/2013 5:25:02 PM ReportTime for a good ol fashion fact check.
Do any of you utilize google?
Public School Board Collective Agreement
Contracts vary slightly school board to school board but here is a good representation.
Make up your own opinion if you feel this is too much or not enough....
Salary
Annual starting salary for a new teacher at lowest and highest pay rates: $45,709, $55,404
Salary for a teacher with more than 10 years of service at the lowest and highest pay rates: $76,021, $94,707
(Teachers can reach the top pay scale 10 years after starting their careers. Within each pay scale there are four groups, which are based on teachers’ education and extra training, as well as years of experience. The pay raises based on years of teaching have taken effect automatically on Sept. 1. In Bill 115, the government has imposed a delay to Feb. 1 and asked teachers to also take three unpaid days.)
Sick leave
Teachers are credited for 20 sick days per year. If they don’t use them all, the remainder can be banked indefinitely until retirement and cashed out up to a maximum of half a year’s pay. Bill 115 reduces allowed sick days to 10 per year and eliminates the ability to bank unused days until retirement.
Benefits
Teachers have an extended health-care plan that is 100-per-cent funded by the employer and dental plan funded 94 per cent by the employer. They also have group life insurance coverage, with the first $35,000 of coverage paid by the board and any additional coverage paid by the teacher.
Pension contributions
Annual pension contributions for teachers equal 10.8 per cent of pay up to $50,100 a year and then 12.4 per cent of any pay above $50,100. A teacher earning $75,000 in 2012 will contribute $8,498 to her pension plan, while a teacher earning $51,000 will contribute $5,522 to his pension.
right wing 1/14/2013 5:29:28 PM Reporttronx
I posted those exact facts the other day under another editorial.
The pay scale does not factor in Principles and Vice Principals...many of them make the 100,000+ dollar club.
They get to have their name in the paper.
right wing 1/14/2013 5:36:35 PM ReportBill 115 is to be repealed.
The teachers contracts are frozen until August 2014.
Two years, big deal...and Bill 115... which the teachers unions stated was the only reason they were fighting this, nothing to do with money, right....will be a thing of the past.
So students are to be "punished" for two years due to the actions of others?
66cherokee 1/14/2013 6:04:08 PM ReportMrJWall, so it's o.k if we pay them say 200,000 a year. Pay them what they want. I can see you don't have a hard time making ends meet. Do you know where the money comes from to pay those teachers????????? The taxpayer. Me, you, other seniors. I am a senior with no pension except CPP. Thank God my husband was able to get a pension, but only after working for 20 years, did they start a fund. So we live on that amount of money. Pay them what they want??????? NO WAY
jade 1/14/2013 6:18:52 PM Reportwell said
tronx 1/14/2013 6:23:23 PM ReportRight Wing
Nice to see someone grasping the big picture.
Bill 115 - Done and Gone
Wage Freeze - Here to Stay
So if it's not about the money, what are they upset about?
miester 1/14/2013 6:26:26 PM ReportI think the 6 hour day refers to highschool teachers, they have it real sweet... elementary teachers have a longer day. I really think they should open up the sports to parents and stop hiding behind 'insurance' reasons. It won't be long before most of the teaching and marking will be done by computers and there won't be so many teachers per school and more guidance counsellors. The U.S. school system is loaded with inspirational teachers at half the cost. When you pay too much you attract the teachers that want the pay/vacation and make the biggest whinners.
chummy 1/14/2013 6:49:09 PM ReportI do not agree with these strikes/protests. At all fire them all there are a whole lot of people out there that want to be teachers who are sitting on supply lists or over seas teaching who I'm sure would like to come back to canada to teach
medsec 1/14/2013 6:51:11 PM ReportIf this bill is so wonderful why is it being repealed, got what they wanted nice democratic society, sickening, and yes to all you parents that are bitching, no trouble taking your kids out of school when a trip to CUBA fits your schedule, it's all about democratic rights, you who are complaining hope your job comes down real hard on you. Have a nice day Go teachers!!!!!!!!!
Havey 1/14/2013 7:23:49 PM ReportI worked for a school board and know first hand that most Secondary teachers were not at their schools much before their first class of the day and if you attempted to call most of them after their last class of the day the school secretary would chuckle and let you know that there was no way that teacher was there. Many times this would be 2:30 or 3:00 p.m. So don't let Secondary teachers tell you how long of a day they have.
As much as someone claims that they work past the end of June, they don't work during July and August. Once high school is finished in mid-June most teachers can't even be found in their schools until the last working day in June.
Now Elementary teachers have it much differently. They are in their schools prior to school opening in September and their days are full 7+ hours per day.
All teachers are paid only for the days contained within the school year calendar as defined by each school board and approved by the Ministry of Education; usually 200 or less per year. This payment is however, spread out over 26 pays per year.
aceawesum 1/14/2013 7:26:39 PM Report#1 son. I took french 30 years ago and haven't used it since. I'm sure that helps my daughter. The method of teaching over the years has changed, I have no idea how the new math is taught. End result is the same but in between is all new to me.
My daughter in grade 6. Class time is 8:25 until 2:40. 6 hours 15 minutes, close enough to 6 hours. Spread it over the summer, it doesn't matter its actual class time.
We can just keep paying everyone whatever they want, and soon it will be like America, broke. Not sure if the country can make payroll becuase they are so far in debt.
Just stop saying your doing this for the kids
Bill_the_Cat 1/14/2013 7:46:16 PM Reportmedsec: there is no human right to form a trade union. Many people are forbidden from unionising.
The real elephant in the room is the method the Ministry of Education enforced contracts (prior to 115). Why did they negotiate with OECTA independently of the School Board Association? The MoE is not the employer.
The Minister then threatened dissolution to any Catholic Board who refused to ratify the agreement (allegedly, but well documented).
Why do we elect trustees, only to have the government do an end-run around them. The teachers have a grievance, but certainly we as tax-payers do as well. If education is meant to be locally administered, why allow Toronto to micromanage all boards, unless the goal is to remove the boards decision-making authority? All the more worrying because the two Toronto boards are the most dysfunctional in the province--and the mandarins down there never look north of Steeles.
Just a different angle.
Cormorant 1/14/2013 8:02:42 PM ReportThere's no point in actually getting emotional over this letter. Here's what it actually boils down to.
There are those who respect what teachers do in their jobs and also those who will never like teachers. For whatever reasons, we all fall into one of these two groups. So be it!
As for the latter group, I say to them, that if you could go back and revisit your career choices you might want have wished that you had chosen education as a career.
First of all, you would have gotten a job that makes a difference in the lives of kids, a difference that will eventually be rewarded years later on the street when those kids come up to you as an adult and talk about what they especially remember happened in your classroom. Some of it is amazing stuff. It actually does happen and it's really nice to hear.
As for the monetary reward, you'll be able to live a decent middle class life, send you kids to college or university, set up an RRSP for the future of your family, count on a generous pension plan and retire with confidence about your future.
As for the holidays, you too would have been able to raise a family with lots of personal family time ensuring that you get to know your children really well, making sure they will be good Canadian citizens, and possibly even coaching other people's kids.
The best is that you will be able to walk the streets of the Sault feeling proud of what you decided to pursue in a career.
i have to admit that there would be times when you felt that you were overworked during the school year because you had all those lessons to plan in the evenings and all that marking on Sundays. But then if you looked out the car window on your way to school during the cold and rainy months and saw the skilled contractors working outdoor in miserable conditions, you'd be glad that you were an indoor worker and so what if you had to work on Saturday and Sunday at home.
We all make choices. What we all should not do is criticize each other's choices. If you think that teachers have it too easy, then i suggest that you quit your job, apply for teacher's college and get a teaching certificate. The you will join a profession with immeasurable rewards. I can assure you that you'll experience all the ups and downs of any job but in the end it will be one of the most rewarding work that anyone can ever expect to do.
R0FL0L 1/14/2013 8:40:45 PM ReportEveryone should be upset about Bill 115...not just the teachers.
The government makes up a Bill, use it than repeal it. Now they can pull it out anytime they need it again. They now know they will get away with it again, because just the teachers stepped up against it and the public got upset with the teachers instead of the government. Wired....
This is one part of the bill that should make everyone go out and protest. We are in a democracy are we??
14. (1) The Ontario Labour Relations Board shall not inquire into or make a decision on whether a provision of the Act, a regulation or an order made… is constitutionally valid or is in conflict with the Human Rights Code.
15. (1) No term or condition included in an employment contract or collective agreement under or by virtue of this Act, process for consultation prescribed under this Act, or decision, approval, act, advice, direction, regulation, or order made by the Minister or Lieutenant Governor in Council under this Act shall be questioned or reviewed in any court.
R0FL0L 1/14/2013 8:51:10 PM ReportThe teachers agreed to a wage freeze way back in April 2012.
But what about this?
And this is really bad for young teachers. There are 2 ways to move up the grid, one is with years of experience and the other has to do with extra courses taken.. but now comes Bill 115
Grid Freeze:
The seniority grid, was 11 years long, is a way to recognize experience. It’s the structure of how teachers get paid.
In addition to the pay freeze teachers accepted, this legislation is imposing a two-year freeze of positions on the grid.
And a lengthening the Grid:
it is an imposed changing of the length of the salary grid from 11 to 21 years this means it will take 10 more years. Add a two-year freeze to that extension, and one earns far less in 16 years than teachers would have earned, without this bill, in four years.
Bill_the_Cat 1/14/2013 8:56:15 PM ReportAs I said before, should the inept PCs ever regain power, they have pledged to make Ontario a 'Right to Work' province.
No more need for a Bill 115.
That seems to be the tide of the times.
Bobbi Jo 1/14/2013 8:59:22 PM ReportWithout the right to strike, any union is at a disadvantage at the bargaining table. Taking away the teachers right to strike should be deemed unconstitutional. What's right is right - period. Please understand the fight, people. The teachers are not striking for more pay, more days off, or more benefits. In fact they are not striking. They are protesting the loss of their RIGHT to strike! I'm as jealous as the next person of summers off, but I wouldn't want to do that job in a million years. What the teachers deal with daily is the stuff of heroes. The government is disrespecting these heroes by taking away a basic right, and now our communities are disrespecting these heroes by reducing their peaceful protest to a story about spoilt cry-babies. Try a little more understanding.
Bill_the_Cat 1/14/2013 9:03:42 PM ReportHeroes? Really? That's a bit over-the-top.
Nice people? Absolutely.
Good educators? For the most part.
Productive citizens? Yes.
Heroes? Not by a long shot.
Too much TV watching.
Alystr 1/14/2013 9:19:43 PM ReportWhere does this moron get these kind of figures? Toronto teachers? Again, half of my family are teachers and can't help but laugh at how stupid some people really are.. So, they never work at home, they never spend their own time on class trips on weekend, they never show up a minute before class starts and probably 50 other things but why waste the time explaining to idiots.. FYI teachers are in school 2 weeks before the kids are.. Yes, they need to prep lol.. Keep fighting teachers, you are worth it.. Like another person put it, you are making roughly 25 cents per hour to babysit and teach these whiners kids..
Sam C 1/14/2013 9:21:47 PM ReportHere's a link to an excellent overview of the issues facing teachers, including some of the points were covered in comments (above).
http://tinyurl.com/Teachers-Bill115
Alystr 1/14/2013 9:21:50 PM ReportBill the Cat, Can you manage to babysit 25 to 30 kids for 8 hours? If your answer is yes then you are in fact a hero..
Bill_the_Cat 1/14/2013 9:34:09 PM ReportThe more kids, the more heroic? The ESL teacher with 5 students is only slightly courageous? The Special Needs teacher with 1 student at a time is, well, kinda yellow-bellied, then?
Police? Fire? Armed Forces? Your average Joe/Jane who performs an extraordinary act of bravery? Doesn't count, I imagine.
Or dare I say it, the Sandy Hook EA and Kindergarten teachers who directly sacrificed themselves to protect their charges.
Don't cheapen heroism by applying it to everyone--ramping up the hyperbole to score political points.
Hmm. Of the list I mentioned, it is the last two who are the most heroic, imho.
aceawesum 1/14/2013 9:55:28 PM ReportAlystr
I never said they didn't do these things. I said the union doesn't allow it anymore. I just want it back how it was and I want the union and the province to stop using my kid as a rag doll in a tug of war competition. Fight Bill 115, in the courts, but don't throw the kids under the bus and stop everything that you became a teacher for just because your union boss and the idiots in Queen's Park can't get along. And yes I have teachers in my family too, but they are the ones who made a deal so they can continue to do what they love. Doing why they became teachers in the first place. Its an easy solution. Admit the battle is lost but not the war and regroup for the next battle in 2 years.
R0FL0L 1/14/2013 10:05:31 PM Reportdon't you understand that you too should fight Bill 115? And Kids learn more from civil disobedience than from "do as you told" attitude.
Alystr 1/15/2013 12:07:05 AM ReportPlease enlighten me how our fire fighters and police are heros in the Soo lol Has there ever been a real fire which endangered a fire fighter life in this city? Has a cop in this city ever been hurt besides slipping on the ice at Tim Hortons? Seriously, that is all you can come up with? Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against our cops or fire fighters.. This city is a far cry from any one of them being able to become a hero in..
candio21 1/15/2013 12:10:16 AM ReportAs much as everything going on with the teachers has affected my family, it is just not fair to take away a groups to have leverage in negotiations. By doing this the teachers are doing the only things they can use for leverage in there negotiations. They are not providing any additional support to the students then there contract regulates. This is the result of this bill. Well I do not agree that the terms being offered to the teachers are unfair, at least most of them, it is still not okay to take away there right to a fair negotiation. ..
deannahamid 1/15/2013 3:11:33 AM ReportThough I don't agree with the whole break down of how much teachers get paid, they do make a good amount of money when you work out their benefits and pension plan.
I do NOT agree that teacher's should be striking about the bill's intended purpose which is forcing teacher's to go back to work.
Look at nurse's, police, firefigters - they are ALL forced to work, even while their contracts are up - and yet you don't hear all the hum drum that the teachers are doing. These PROFESSIONS continue to do their jobs!
I think that teachers don't realize how good they have it (most teachers) - yes you always have your "difficult" students, but the majority of kids are easy to deal with and a pleasure to teach. I also think that by using the "babysitter" card, that you are bringing down the whole discussion.
One thing must be mentioned is that teachers are normally only allowed to teach several years of school based on their focus (as in grades JK-3, 4-7, 8+, etc) and that because of this, teachers generate school day plans that can be reused year after year. Therefore they generate a data base if you will where they can pull stuff from for their teaching and thus decreasing the amount of time spent on prepping.
I do know of MANY teachers (esp. elementary teachers) who spend many bucaneros on materials & such to provide to their students that is out of pocket - but this can't be used as a basis of being paid more per hour because the government shouldn't be paying more for teachers, they should be putting more for each STUDENT!!!
NyteGurl 1/15/2013 6:00:26 AM ReportTeachers start showing a little more respect for our children/grandchildren who are in your care instead of passing the buck because you do not know how to properly handle some situations. Then and only then will people start respecting you and your rights.
I can personally mention 3 different situations with 3 different schools that come with facts to back me and many of you will likely recall these mishandled situations due to teacher neglegance!! As all 3 have been in the media!
Sorry teachers, if you want support for your rights, start supporting the rights of children in the elementary schools and stop trying to slide these things under the rug and hope they correct themselves and just go away...
The most recent situation I am referring to took place only 1 month ago!!
Yes it's very fresh in my memory and am I angry about how it was dealt with? YOU BET!!! I just wonder how many situations have occured that the public are unaware of???
inferno 1/15/2013 8:39:57 AM ReportAverage Hourly Wages in Canada 2011
Profession
Average Hourly Wage
Retail Sales/ Sales Clerk $12 (628.60 INR)
Data Entry Clerk $15 (785.75 INR)
Bookkeeper $17 (890.52 INR)
Accounting Clerk $18 (942.90 INR)
Truck Driver $20 (1047.67 INR)
Carpenter $22 (1152.44 INR)
Executive Assistant $23 (1204.82 INR)
Plumber $25 (1309.59 INR)
Electrician $25 (1309.59 INR)
Social Worker $28 (1466.74 INR)
Architect $29 (1519.12 INR)
Registered Nurse $34 (1781.04 INR)
Physiotherapist $34 (1781.04 INR)
Computer Engineer (not software) $35 (1833.42 INR)
Lawyer $40 (2095.34 INR)
Computer and Information Systems Manager $40 (2095.34 INR)
Engineering Manager $42 (2200.10 INR)
Dentist $70 (3666.84 INR)
mrc2425 1/15/2013 10:04:40 AM ReportWhy is the government and the union not being truthfull about the 1.5% reduction in pay for teachers for the next two years.
Reading the latest MacLeans magazine, the province of Ontario is owed $2.4 billion dollars in taxes, mostly from businesses and is doing nothing to collect it. (www.macleans.ca - SEARCH). Our Ontario government is going to write off $1.4 billion in unpaid taxes on the backs of all tax payers, which includes teachers.
Why do we not also hear about the average salary of an athlete getting $3 million dollars per year, that's $241,000 per month, $60,000 per week,$2,000 per day / 6 hours = $334/hour.
The grass is always greener on the other side.
R0FL0L 1/15/2013 12:18:01 PM Report"Look at nurse's, police, firefigters - they are ALL forced to work, even while their contracts are up - and yet you don't hear all the hum drum that the teachers are doing. These PROFESSIONS continue to do their jobs!"
Yes this is because.....
They are all "essential worker" so when they are "stuck" in their negotiations it goes to an arbitrator. That arbitrator is then settling the contract. With this system nurses, police and firefighters are NOT ALLOWED to walk off the job, they still can demonstrate during their time off, BUT they know that they are still being heard and treated fairly with "the right of binding arbitration".
The government could make Teachers "essential worker" BUT they are afraid of the arbitrators ruling, because it would be unlikely that they could do a 2 year wage freeze, 1.5% wage reduction, freeze the grid, lengthening the grid, decrease sick days so drastically in one contract.
So instead they tried Bill 115 and looked how the general public reacts to it and the rest is already history. We see it here every time this subject comes up.
The teachers are still professional, treating children and parents with respect, buy supplies from their own money, they still stay in the classroom for little Joey or little Annie if they need extra help.
gr84u 1/15/2013 12:36:58 PM ReportSomeone put a bag over " Number One Son's" head and listen to the "farmer"
Bill_the_Cat 1/15/2013 1:00:53 PM ReportAlystr: CST Doucet?
Note that I did not say they *are* heroes, simply that by your calculus they could not ever achieve that title: after all, they don't babysit 25-30 children for 8 hours.
That is not the best I have; I only phrased it in terms I hoped you would understand. Apparently I was in error.
Calling teachers de facto heroes cheapens true heroic acts and smacks of someone who watches more Oprah and doesn't read history/current events.
cjborg 1/15/2013 1:41:00 PM ReportRe "Old Man Winter 1/14/2013 9:47:18 AM Report quoted in part from another related article response....."
I think that people has to realized that our education system has reached its peek. I was looking at Michigan salary this morning, their teachers have been taking a salary cut since 2007. Does higher salary means better education ? Most likely not.The education system in Ontario has a very big payroll that needs to be cut down.".... unquote
Some interesting food for thought.......... (for 2014 contract negotiations backdrop & reference purposes???)
"Lost in the debate about collective bargaining rights and the related issues of pay, pensions, and health care coverage is the dialogue about a core issue. There is no clear correlation that better paid teachers produce better educated students.
Wisconsin teachers are among the most vocal opponents of Gov. Scott Walker’s plan to curtail some collective bargaining rights. Though there is little doubt that good teachers improve student achievement, the evidence that well-compensated educators produce better prepared students is mixed. Wisconsin is a case in point.
Wisconsin teachers fare slightly worse than the national average with starting salaries of $32,642 and a maximum with a master’s degree of $60,036. The Tax Foundation says its tax burden is the fourth worst in the U.S. and its QualityCounts rating was a C+, about average. What the state underscores is how a dysfunctional system of teacher pay rewards educators with little emphasis on merit. Throwing more money at teachers, however, is not the answer to the myriad of problems affecting the nation’s schools.
Read more: The Ten States That Pay Teachers The Most (And Why It Doesn’t Matter) - 24/7 Wall St. http://247wallst.com/2011/02/26/the-ten-states-that-pay-teachers-the-most-and-why-it-doesnt-matter/#ixzz2I45g8WAx
Twister62 1/15/2013 2:30:41 PM ReportThis sounds like a good argument for private schools!
sunnie 1/15/2013 4:46:05 PM ReportWow,just to add a few points here. The teachers federation are not the only ones affected by bill 115 CUPE is also, and as a CUPE member I appreciate the fight the teachers are fighting because they will help out all other unions with the same plight. To put it plain and simple this is just plain union busting by the government.
Another point here is that teachers are educated. They spent thousands of dollars to get where they are and continue to pay for extra courses every year to keep up to date to the standards our children need to learn. Never mind the money they put out all the time for Stickers, Art supplies, Pencils, Erasers, Rulers. etc....
I have yet to meet a Teacher that doesn't go above and beyond for the children in their care. Their hours are not as simple as 9-3. I know this for a fact.
They earn and deserve every dime they get.
Cormorant 1/15/2013 5:45:26 PM ReportThis is to all you teachers who trying in this forum to change negative minds about the validity of your protest for the right to collective bargaining.
Give it up finally! What good is it to debate to try to convince those in the public who are anti- teacher and anti-union? Get this. They will never stop their criticisms.
Just go on about your valued education business knowing that your profession is the only one that truly makes a difference in the lives of our best resource...children. What other profession makes such an important contribution to kids other than their own parents which, by the way, is sometimes is dubious?
Linkeed 1/15/2013 10:50:21 PM ReportAuthor misses the point.
I am a student in school, that supports the teachers 100% in this. The fact that Bill 115 was created as a law that can't be fought in court, after the HSCDSB agreed to negotiate, signals that either the liberal party doesn't know what they're doing, or that they've created this law.. with the future in mind.
I love the liberal party. I love the right to protest more. I'm going to university. My sector is growing and will be a sector I can get hired in --- I will have a union job. I like the rights of unions to negotiate more than any party. I also like being able to challenge laws that are not legal in court than any party.
I am disappointed that the conservative party's response to this is to say that the liberal party has not been harsh enough.
I am disappointed that the Liberal party has done this, instead of negotiating, in the first place. I would have hoped that they could defend democracy better then this. While I understand the reasoning behind their decision, I do not believe that the rights justify the means.
I will also not be voting for the Liberal Party in the future.
Mazzer1033 1/16/2013 7:50:27 PM ReportI can't believe for a second that teachers would take away from the kids what they have been getting from the beginning of time. Teachers are using the kids to send a message to the government. THAT"S WRONG I have a full time job, coach two hockey teams that i'm sure have kids of teachers on both of them. I HAVE NEVER STOPPED FOR A SECOND TO SAY IF I DON"T GET THIS I WILL STOP COACHING YOUR KIDS. My timeless unpaid effort is for the kids and only the kids. Do it for the same reason some of you actually became teachers. FOR THE KIDS.
SooToday.com has received the following letter from a loyal reader and Sault Ste. Marie native now living in Cobourg, east of Toronto.
