David Root on bullyingSaturday, October 20, 2012 by: SooToday.com Staff
David Root is occasionally described as a "Jack-of-all-trades and Master of none" because of his lengthy and varied work history, David is probably best described as a musician, writer, and teacher.
David completed his second degree (BA Music) at Algoma University, then obtained a BEd from Lakehead University in Thunder Bay. He is currently an Occasional (Supply) Teacher with the ADSB.
You might also see David out on our roads teaching young people to drive.
Currently, Root is an editorialist at SooToday.com who enjoys engaging in thoughtful and civil discussions of topical issues.
This weekend we've decided to feature his column about his own experiences with bullying.
We'd also like to thank our viewers who took part in our recent homepage poll on the topic.
You can see the SooToday poll results here.
It can happen to anyone.
by: David Root
The media is abuzz with the story of Amanda Todd, the 15-year old BC student who committed suicide last week, after posting an emotional plea for help on You Tube a week previously.
I’ve watched the video, and it is heart-wrenching. That a young person could feel that alienated, that alone, and that helpless is almost beyond comprehension. Almost.
That so many young people have committed suicide underscores the fact that there are youth who feel that way. Amanda Todd was just the latest, but I fear she won’t be the last.
Everyone seems to have an opinion. Sadly there are those who, while not stating outright that she had it coming, aren’t terribly sympathetic to the situation.
Fortunately, most posts I have read have been sympathetic.
One poster stated that what happened wasn’t really “bullying,” but harassment and assault, and that calling it “bullying” is simply dumbing-down a situation that is much more complex.
Bullying is defined as the use of force or coercion to abuse or intimidate others.
I have heard people say that bullying is just part of being a kid, and suggest that everybody gets bullied at some point.
That may be true. That doesn’t make it right.
It isn’t something that you can just “get over.”
Much attention is being given to the role of social media in this and other cases.
Cyber-bullying is a problem, as it is much easier for bullies to seek out and harass their victims online. The internet provides a sense of anonymity, or at least a virtual curtain behind which to hide.
For instance, slip a note into someone's locker and you might be seen by someone, or by surveillance cameras — something that was not even considered when those of us who grew up in the 50s, 60s, or even 70s.
One is less likely to be caught when sending them a note on Facebook, by email or online chat. In fact, since it is all too easy to set up a fake Facebook, email or chat account, anonymity is almost guaranteed.
There is some suggestion in online discussions, here in SooToday and on national media sites, that today’s teens are perhaps too sensitive, that they allow themselves to be bothered by remarks that they should just ignore.
Unfortunately, what we, as adults, consider to be a very "slight insult or remark" is not seen as such by teenagers. This isn't just a case of being politically correct or overly sensitive.
We now know that the brain does not fully develop until about age 21-25, and that it is the area of the brain that controls judgment that is the last to develop.
This leaves young people susceptible both to misinterpreting casual remarks and to taking insults to be more serious than they perhaps should.
For that matter, a note that says "You should die," is difficult to pass off as a "slight insult or remark."
One SooToday poster has suggested that it is only the weak who are bullied, kids that won’t stand up and defend themselves from bullies. I can’t agree with that.
I tried standing up to my bullies, and defending myself from the abuse. But one against two, or a group, stands little chance of stopping bullying from happening.
I know. I was a victim of bullying.
I moved into a new neighbourhood, and started going to a new school. Two brothers who lived up the street, known for being ‘troublemakers’ took to picking on me on the way home from school, pushing, punching, and knocking me to the ground.
I said nothing to my parents, at first, out of fear of getting it worse than I was. Eventually my parents did find out, and my mother went up the street to speak to their mother. She insisted hers were good boys who wouldn’t do such a thing.
Eventually some of the neighbour who witnessed this daily ritual called the police. Their intervention stopped them from bullying me.
I’d like to say that was the end of it.
Instead, other kids took to picking on me, teasing, pushing, punching me, and one day even tying me to a tree.
I will admit that their bullying wasn’t as bad — not as violent and malicious — as that I experienced from the brothers, but neither can I describe it as entirely “good-natured fun.”
Two things ended the bullying.
The first was a one-on-one fight with a classmate. I clocked him in the chin with my book bag. By the laws of the playground, I won that fight and his respect. After that the others, for the most part, just stopped bullying me and accepted me as one of the crowd.
The second thing that happened was that there was another “new kid” arrive at our school.
I am ashamed to admit that I participated in bullying him.
He didn’t get tied to a tree, nor did he get as physically abused as I was — at least, so far as I know — but he was teased rather mercilessly.
This is, perhaps, where people adopt the view that “bullying is just part of being a kid.”
I will agree that, in many cases, new kids are teased. For that matter, almost any kid can is probably teased at some point. It doesn’t make it right, even if most do just “get over it.”
A bit of teasing is one thing; outright bullying is something else altogether.
For example: knocking the books out of someone's hands once could be considered a joke. When this happens every day, every time the bully encounters the victim, then it is bullying.
That some kids do move on after being bullied does not mean that those who don’t are weaker. There are far too many factors at play for these situations to be that cut-and-dried.
It’s far too involved to discuss in this limited space, and there is a wealth of research available online. We need to understand, though, that there are kids who cannot handle being bullied, for whatever reason.
There is a great deal of discussion at many levels on how to address the problem of bullying, and the related problem of teen suicide.
While not all teen suicides are the result of bullying, many are.
Proposed solutions range from yet more study to developing more anti-bullying programs to stricter punishment for bullies to increased funding for children’s mental health programs.
I will admit that I don’t know what the answer might be, but I question the effectiveness of the suggestion.
From an adult point of view, increasing the availability of mental health counselling and support programs sounds like a great idea. The problem is that young people, much like adults, attach a great deal of stigma to “mental health” issues.
It is getting better, but there is a very long way to go.
Think of it from a kid’s point of view. You are being bullied. Some people are telling you to just ignore it, or to get over it. Others are suggesting that perhaps you should seek some counselling.
It’s bad enough that you can’t seem to handle this situation, but do you also want to admit that you have a “mental problem?”
I haven’t yet seen the movie Bully, but I hope to. I have been following it on Facebook, and am encouraged by the schools and community groups that have got on board in spreading the message: Bullying is wrong.
As I mentioned at the beginning of this piece, it is almost beyond comprehension that a young person could feel that alienated, that alone, and that helpless.
Talk to the young people in your lives. Better still, listen to them. Hear what they are saying and don’t be quick to dismiss their concerns as trivial. To them there is nothing more important that what is happening in their lives: who likes them and who doesn’t, whether or not they fit in. Whether or not anyone cares.
Encourage them. Love them. Show them you care.
Be there for them.
And if you know a young person who is a bully, talk to them. Listen to them. Show them you care. Explain why what they are doing is not acceptable, and help them find a better outlet for their feelings.
Be there for them.
It’s a tough world for today’s youth.
Bullying happens. It can happen to anyone.
But… that’s just my opinion.
Read more SooToday editorialists. Click Here.
tonka 10/20/2012 5:57:58 PM Report
Thank you David for sharing your story, it is heartbreaking to think that someone, anyone,feels so alone and helpless that they have go to such drastic measures to end their pain!
frauleinbroomhilda 10/20/2012 6:13:17 PM Report
Thank you for the enlighting story and also for admitting to being a part of bullying yourself. My personal opinion...if we see any kind of bullying whether in public or behind the scenes of our everyday life...we should try to prevent it by calling the police, telling someone or intervening ourselves. It may just save a life.
LadyG 10/20/2012 7:01:19 PM Report
speed7 10/20/2012 7:09:19 PM Report
Great article. I agree. There are quite a few bullies and intimidators on here in the comments section. I would like to see them abolished for good. No room for people continually calling other people names like unitelligent for example as safe a way to downplay that someone is stupid. They simply argue they did not say anything vulgar or bullyish but just chose to manipulate the words with the same meaning with tongue in cheek. This poor girl's story was tragic. Her family without a daughter all for what? Nothing? Absolutely nothing.
Jo1 10/20/2012 8:09:33 PM Report
Thank You David for your article, more needs to be printed on this subject. Adults don't fully understand how devistating this is to teens. Peer groups rule, and if they are bullying it's major difficulties for
chichimawn 10/20/2012 8:12:18 PM Report
Thank you for the honest story. I think that one of the things that people fail to realize is, that some children get bullied at home, as well. There is no excuse for bullying to go on to the extent that it causes someone to commit suicide. Some person in that childs life knows it is going on! I have seen teachers look the other way or even insinuate that the child is asking for it because of the way they act. I think we all need to stand up for even the people that may get on our nerves. We need to be kinder to one another.
Working Man 10/20/2012 9:01:27 PM Report
Yeah I agree. Very tragic. The sad thing is principals and teachers don't do anything about it. I can't use any of their names or I'd probably get sued for defamation. I would sure love to tell the truth though, but I can't! Some principals deserve to be fired... Or they perhaps deserve to go to hell--why do you think it's called 'fired'? (that was a 'joke')
One of my elementary teachers (5th grade) verbally bullied me on a daily basis(because she could). Now she's a principal! And I 'never' got bullied by any students in the class - go figure! Now she's considered that classy word: 'successful'. B.S!! She doesn't deserve it! So many teachers try to influence kids into believing that they "won't amount to anything". If you get told that afformation enough times you will believe it. And they know this! Or at least they should! It's a good thing I turned out ok eventually, or i'd have to kill her. I 'could' have turned into a serial killer or a criminal; if I didn't have so much self-discipline and self-control as well as having amazing parents.
It also makes no sense to blame the kids. Blame the parents and teachers - it's their fault. If you think that kids aren't influenced by their parents or people they look up to, well then you would be classified an 'idiot' (no offense). People become bullies for a reason. It shouldn't be that hard to figure out.....
That is why it doesn't really bother me if a guy assaults another guy, or cuts another guys head off on a bus, or whatever, because I understand why it happens. I can't understand why a man would hit a woman though and I probably will only desire to beat the crap out of that man..
The point is, you can't expect the little kids to change the world and have a really positive influence on the world around them, without first looking at yourself and thinking that maybe it's 'you' that has the problem. The catch-22 is that adults on a whole have to change first before the kids are going to change. Obviously! Otherwise it will 'never' change..
Eg. Rappers, for instance, create lyrics that verbally assault other people because for 1 thing: it sells. And for another, people love the drama it creates. You can't exactly change that... Musical influence changes people on a neurological level to the extent where it's ingrained in their personality.
People were good in the 40's, we declined drastically from that point and we "can't" go back unless the people that already have that social degradation ingrained in them change themselves. It is 'almost' impossible, or at least it seems that way....
JustMe1234567 10/20/2012 9:42:40 PM Report
When I was young going to school here in the catholic system I had some bullying. It was different for us girls, it was more of a clique mentality. You were in -or you were out.
If you were out, you would fret because you wouldn't have a partner for gym the next day or anyone to hang out with at recess. That may sound trivial now, but in my grade 6 mind, it was the end of the world. I can't imagine if the internet existed and the bullying continued. Maybe that is why the older generations don't understand how it can be SO much worse for kids today.
I must say there was a ringleader, she was the main bully. Those around her were bullies by default. She would get the others to agree with her to turn against one in the group.
It was her power game I guess. To this day thinking of her brings up anger and resentment. And it's not even for what she did to me, others got far worse.
If I walked past her on the street tomorrow I don't think I'd acknowledge her.
I often wonder if she realizes how awful she was when she was young? Does she regret it now? Is she embarrassed? I mean, people change. Did Karma get it, or will it yet?
I hear she has a grown daughter now, I hope the apple fell far from the tree.
frauleinbroomhilda 10/20/2012 9:44:56 PM Report
I remember when I was in Grade 5, my school teacher pulled my hair back and forth. I can't remember for the life of me for what but...I remember this like yesterday. I'll never forget this at Holy Angels and I never even told my parents. How sad and embarrassed I feel today thinking about it. I'm still sick thinking about it Mrs. H.
speed7 10/20/2012 9:49:50 PM Report
sure working man,
Thanks for your comments earlier in a previous topic that when you said that reading all the stupid comments on soo today makes you feel 500% smarter. :-(
speed7 10/20/2012 10:02:53 PM Report
Actually I saw that you didnt use the actuall word Stupid but still?
Working Man 10/20/2012 10:11:36 PM Report
Considering the lack of an intellectual response mechanism in todays society, I probably did say that, though not exactly remembering my exact words or what I was replying to.
Do you have any feedback regarding anything I said, or are you just feeling bad because you're guilty of being a negative influence to the kids yourself?
speed7 10/20/2012 10:31:17 PM Report
I was bullyied too only by classmates. Had I had the knowledge like I do now. It would stop them point blank. Best thing to do to a bully is speak up!
It's all about power and the more power you give the more they take! The cycle of abuse ivolves taking power over another individual if you allow it the cycle never breaks. A classmate grabbed my arm and threatned to bend it backwards to break my arm. I looked her straight in the eye and said " Go Ahead"! We'll have a nice talk with the principle after. I'll never forget it. All of a sudden her eyes locked with mine and realizing what I had just said, she let go of her strength on me and walked backwards slowly like she was drained of all that power she had over me. I swear she looked just like a zombie. She walked away still chuckling and stating profanities but I didnt care? She never bothered me again.
JustMe1234567 10/20/2012 10:53:24 PM Report
I find all the comments about being bullied by teachers interesting.
I scour my mind for any school days being bullied by a teacher. Nothing there.
I was intimidated by a couple of teachers, sure, I had a couple of mean teachers, even one that had a breakdown, but bullied by one over a period of time. Nope.
Thank god. Being bullied by my peers was bad enough.
I wish a bully would comment, I can see why they wouldn't want to, but it sure would be interesting. As adults do they feel bad? Do they even recognize they were a bully? Do they wish they had a way to apologize now?
I digress, we should actually be focusing on what to do about the current issue at hand. I think it comes down to the kids today having the added pressure of cyber bullying, damn internet.
speed7 10/20/2012 11:09:25 PM Report
Right on Just me!
speed7 10/20/2012 11:42:43 PM Report
I know, know one ever remembers what they were replying to. Funny how that happens? Especially when they finish explaining with another question? Usually that question is something of insult or injury and has nothing to do with the original question at all.
frauleinbroomhilda 10/21/2012 12:08:50 AM Report
I am being quite honest when I said I had my hair pulled or yanked by Mrs. H. in Grade 5. I...to this day don't know why, but I've never forgotten this. Why would a teacher do this to a student? Was this bullying then or did she just not like me. When something this horrific happens in the classroom can we bring it forth today and claim assault or abuse in the classroom??? It's like a sexual assault but really an assualt or abuse to a student. I've remembered this for 39 years now! Help?
JustMe1234567 10/21/2012 12:18:08 AM Report
To frauleinbroomhilda - she pulled your hair, but that is all you remember? Did she treat you badly daily? Or was it that one incident that really stands out in your mind? I mean no disrespect, I am just interested to know if you were bullied continually by Mrs H or this was a one-time incident (that is burned into your mind and for that I'm sorry)
Today's bullying is driving kids to kill themselves, it's horrific.
Bad Dawg 10/21/2012 12:41:14 AM Report
I hope we learn from this..... when we see or hear our kids cyber-bullying we take away the means (cell phones, laptops, facebook). Social media is a PRIVILEGE not a right parents.
moem 10/21/2012 12:53:05 AM Report
Didn't anyone read the article last year ( probably not on here) about the teacher who cut the Aboriginal boys ponytail off then brought him to a mirror and said don't you feel better about yourself I think he was about 8, he'd been growing his hair his whole life and had to go home and face his parents!! Now that's bullying ( kind of racist too) his parents were upset, many readers were outraged but guess what teacher got a talking too, and kept her job!! Children spend the majority of their time at school, if we don't hold teachers to a higher standard and demand that they do their job to the best of their ability regardless of their feelings towards the government or their dissatisfaction about wages how can we expect things at school to change!!!
And thanks David for sharing your story, it's true that things that seem trivial to us Can be life shattering to a child/teenager I wish we could help them to see that, but given their naivety about the world ( though they would never admit it) and their innocence and lack of experience it's a tough concept to understand
speed7 10/21/2012 2:09:13 AM Report
Moem which school did this happen with the boy and his ponytail?
shaddow 10/21/2012 7:26:08 AM Report
Thank You David - Your 'bullying' article was the best that I have seen in some time. I was bullied most of my life. In High School the last couple years were the worst. I was even assaulted in the hallway as a teacher walked in & his comment was I didn't see anything as my glasses were too dark from coming from outside. The female Principal was just as bad. Her comments were that nothing happened & I was just causing problems. My Grandmother, Myself & my adopted Grampa went to the school to see what was being done. My Grampa asked why was nothing being done & why double standards was being used. The Principal told him it was none of his business as he was not a parent & has no say. Wrong thing to say as my Grampa replied without hesitation - I'm a Taxpayer & can ask any questions about bullying, assaulting or any other questions about a special friend going to that school, without any backtalk. My Grampa eventually went to the board office and complained & had me put into Adult Learning Centre for the following year & I have being doing great since. The teachers are all wonderful there & No Bullying is allowed by anyone. I am still in school & suppose to graduate next year. I'm very thankful to my Grampa for standing up for me & demanding that Bullying & Double Standards must stop & be enforced. Thanks again David you are a great man
rosey28 10/21/2012 8:36:50 AM Report
I've been there, Ive seen it, and back in the day if they were reported and charged to the full most of the bully's wouldn't have the top jobs they have today. That really bothers me to see the positions that these people hold. I wish that they would come forward and admit that they were bullies and how they tormented other students throught school and see how far their careers would go from there. Have them to put on workshops.
moem 10/21/2012 8:39:28 AM Report
It was Thunder Bay sorry if it sounded like the soo if it had been I would still be chained to the board office waiting for the teacher to be fired!! Lol
JustMe1234567 10/21/2012 10:12:41 AM Report
Kudos to Shaddow's grandpa!
We need more people like that. Shaddow I'm glad you are doing better now. Sorry that happened to you, it shouldn't have.
When I think back, I honestly don't think any of my teachers had a clue abut the bully girl. It didn't even occur to any of us to tell on her.
Striving to remember a reason as to why she was such a bully, I remember now that she failed into our grade!
A ha! She probably felt inferior and used that as an excuse to be a bully.
And because she was older, for some odd reason we listened to her.
Oh things would have been different for a lot of girls in my class if she had not failed into our grade.
These days you need to take your kids seriously if they complain about bullying and do something about it. Like Shaddows grandpa did!
catmom 10/21/2012 10:13:08 AM Report
Thanks for sharing your story, David. Writing about your experience must have brought back many painful memories.
I want to assure any of the previous posters, who asserted that teachers either don't care or don't do anything about bullying, that the majority of us care deeply and take bullying in our schools very seriously. We spend six hours a day with children and their emotional health is important to us. Unfortunately, our influence and authority does not really extend outside of our school day. We do what we can while the children are in our care and we try to establish effective protocols between home and school but, if a parent refuses to acknowledge that his or her child is acting like a bully, there are not a lot of things we can do.
speed7 10/21/2012 12:07:01 PM Report
"The point is, you can't expect the little kids to change the world and have a really positive influence on the world around them, without first looking at yourself and thinking that maybe it's 'you' that has the problem. The catch-22 is that adults on a whole have to change first before the kids are going to change. Obviously! Otherwise it will 'never' change"
I have no idea what you are talking about? Are you meaning me specifically or adults in general? I dont expect kids to change the world. I am a responsible adult had parents who, were absolutely decent and fair with not just me but everyone thank god, never abused me. Only taught me values. Corrected me when they saw I did something wrong. I Grew up in a normal healthy environment at home. Also your including teachers are to blame in your senario, I find to be an inflated statement. Obviously when you dont see a teacher even nerely as to so much to touch a student anymore even if its to say hey great job with a confirmation and a pat on the shoulder, it means the world has completely changed period. It doesnt mean that I expected the child to change becuase of my background. Society is to blame as well and all its labelling and the everyday pressures of bieng a child and growing up into to bieng a responsible adult. Sure there are isolated incidents and there always is.
I was fortunate to never have that problem growing up myself. If anything I blame society.
If anything needs to change in any adult these days its to rienforce rules and discipline on their children at home. If this is what you mean about adults having to change then yes then I agree. Also to talk to them often. Be intersted in their activities and mostly give them good advice on how to deal with issues at school or with friends. Not plop them in from of an x box , buy them personal computers and televisions in their own bedroom and expect that to do it for you. I love computers myself and have a degree and yes I like technology too but with my children there would be limits as to how much time they would spend on a computer or a gaming concil. Rap music is a definate no no. Its origins came from a group of society who were brought to north america into slavery. Lucky for people like like abraham lincoln and martin luther king.
A childs brain today has too much overload and there usually is no discssion with parents at home. With my kids, we would be talking one on one at home, together parent and child. That is the missing link today too. Not Talking to your child, along with intgernet and phones , also another thing to blame along with this cooker pressure of a society that we live in today. Its right to tell your child if you they bullied they have the choice to a step back think and walk away. If the bully keeps at it. They have other choices other than just aggresion or physical fighting behaviour. That's just my personal opinion to be taken with a grain of salt.
frauleinbroomhilda 10/21/2012 12:36:46 PM Report
JustMe1234567: I remembered this incident clearly as the only time she assaulted me. She would scream at other students and her eyes would look huge. I was really afraid of her and made darn sure that I was well always on my best behaviour. Still don't know what I did wrong. It certainly would put closure on this for me.
speed7 10/21/2012 2:18:39 PM Report
fraulin Sorry you went throught that. It was'nt right but back then teachers actually were given the ability to scold children . At that school and many others. Parents didnt object much. They basically handed over the duty of dicipline to the teachers. Maybe it was a bit too much back then but now its just totally opposite and there is really no happy medium. Yes back then there were a few educators who were sour apples in the bunch. Do you remember Mr. Beck what a nice man. He had a genuine heart of gold. With meetings with my mom always had great things to say about me. He didnt like it when other kids bullied me which happened sometimes, I remember that it almost brought him to the point where he was in tears about it himself. He realy cared. A very positive person in my childhood life for sure. I didnt let the bullies rent space in my head. Very important ... just let it glide off.. dust my shoulders and back to bieng to school again. Tommorrow is aother day.
moem 10/21/2012 3:31:22 PM Report
Speed7 lovely story I'm glad you shook it off bit the kinds of bullying we are seeing today go beyond the scope of what most people can simply let glide off, it is constant with Internet and social media one can cause an enormous amount of hurt in a very short time, these are sad times to grow up, Amanda Todd is a tragic case that has garnered a lot of attention but sadly there are others, some who won't commit suicide bit will live tortured in a sort of hell their whole lives. Many will turn to drugs and alcohol and sadly will end up in jails or dead and of course they will be subjected to the name calling and be made fun of on here by people who were probay bullies themselves
speed7 10/21/2012 4:26:27 PM Report
moem you are correct. Its become out of control. The digital age is in itself a monstrosity growing bigger at warp speed. We cant live without it anymore email, ebilling, e socializing. e banking etc.... just as common as a loaf of bread.
libster 10/21/2012 4:45:09 PM Report
Bullying doesn't just take place at school...It also happens quite frequently in organized sports. It is even harder for the child to speak out because their parents have spent money on this activity. If the child does tell it is usually down played to "initiation" or they "can't take a joke." The child is then shunned by other team members and the parents marked as trouble makers.
RLE 10/21/2012 5:03:36 PM Report
I know this is a different age, but on one occasion when I was about 8 yrs old two students from my school took it upon themselves to make my life miserable. Thus, on one occasion I arrived home with some visible cuts and bruises. I t took some persuading, but I finally told mom and dad what had happened. Dad went to visit the other two dads involved and from that day on those two never bothered me again. It was several years later that myself and these other two were sitting in a bar one night reminiscing about our childhood that I found out that the other two dads had shown their displeasure at bullying by giving the two boys who bothered me what is often called a "whuppin."
Interesting how in today's society the problem and a solution to the problem are both frowned upon.
libster 10/21/2012 5:11:45 PM Report
I agree RLE... I think that alot of the problem with these bullys is that their parents don't think that their child is doing anything wrong.
speed7 10/21/2012 11:01:09 PM Report
I agree . When I drive home late from work at night there are often little groups of very young boys walking at 1 am breaking into fights with each other. The police come by lights flashing. Its a growning concern.
theprotector 10/22/2012 8:24:55 AM Report
Sam good story.
I agree about the counciling however it is the bully (s) that need the counciling. Lets face it there is some deep issues these bullies are dealing with to attack someone else whether verbally or physically. Programs need to be established to seek out the root cause.
Working Man 10/23/2012 12:22:56 AM Report
Yeah.. I totally agree with you... My statement did not mean to imply that it was 'you', to blame, but society in general. Sorry for the mis-interpretation. I'm not a writer.
"If anything needs to change in any adult these days its to rienforce rules and discipline on their children at home." -- speed7... Yes I totally agree.
And I don't think I said the statement of me being 500% smarter than everyone. I'm not 'that' arrogant!