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Sault College

Why the HST is Good for You and Me
By Justin Tetreault
SooToday.com
Thursday, November 05, 2009

Justin TetreaultThis time in Liberally Speaking, I thought I would mix things up a bit and talk about a provincial issue that has been in the media a lot lately – the Harmonized Sales Tax (HST).

There has been a lot of fear mongering from both the NDP and Progressive Conservatives about this, so I thought a column explaining the issue with all of the information might be a benefit to everyone.

There are several parts to the HST discussion. The most obvious being that instead of the 8% PST and 5% GST being calculated and collected separately, there would be one new tax of 13%.

One of the effects of this is that items with are currently PST exempt, will be charged the full HST, this is effectively an 8% tax increase on these items. If you listened to commentators and some politicians, you would think that this is the full issue. “Just another McGuinty tax increase” blah blah blah.

Even on here, you see commenters with a list they obviously cut and pasted from a London message board (London Knights tickets?) talking about increases to golf fees and hair cuts, making it seem like this was the whole story.

But really, that couldn’t be further from the truth. The fact is that the HST is just one part of a much larger tax reform package.

In order to make the HST work, the McGuinty government has devised a plan to make it beneficial to both consumer and businesses.

First, while there will be some items subject to more tax, the vast majority (over 80%) of goods and services are already subject to both the GST and PST and will have no change.

Secondly, the government is lowering income taxes by 16.5% on the first $36, 848 of taxable income, making income taxes in Ontario, the lowest of any province in Canada.

Additionally, a new tax rebate (similar to the GST rebate) will be made available to families earning less than $160,000 ($1,000 rebate) and individuals earning less than $80,000 ($300 rebate). There are also addition tax rebates and credits for low-income adults and children.

There is also a rebate for municipalities, academic institutions, schools, hospitals, charities and non-profit organizations.

The McGuinty government has basically done everything it can to ensure that nobody will be adversely affected by higher taxes on some products.

Now that I have discussed the tax benefits to consumers, I should talk about why this is a good deal for businesses.

Right now, Ontario businesses are burdened by the outdated two-tax system. The manufacturing sector especially is having a very tough time competing in Ontario and many, many workplaces are shutting down. Tax harmonization is a way to make Ontario’s tax system more welcoming for businesses to open up shop in Ontario.

Businesses in Ontario will save an estimated $500 million a year in administrative costs alone by only collecting and remitting one tax instead of two. That’s half of the paperwork.

The HST also leads to savings on business inputs (such as machinery) to the tune of $5 billion. There is also one-time transitional funding to help businesses with the costs of changing over their accounting systems and point-of-sale systems.

The HST is pretty much universally loved by business organizations (Toronto Board of Trade, Ontario Chamber of Commerce, Retail Council of Canada) and social organizations (Daily Bread Food Bank, Ontario Association of Food Banks, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives) alike, two groups with very different interests and constituencies.

If you listen to opposition critics, you would think that this is the worst decision in the history of Ontario. But then again, it depends when you were listening to them. For instance:

“I agree that there’s little sense in allowing two separate governments to apply two separate taxes and policies and collect two separate groups of sales taxes.” Tim Hudak (April 23, 2009)

“I think right now (people) think of a harmonized tax as being an increased tax, you know, period, full stop. That isn't what it is." John Tory (November 14, 2007).

So why are the Conservatives making such a big deal about it now? Pure politics. They see it as an issue that people don’t really understand are and looking to score some easy points. Maybe they are on to something. The recent past has shown that the Canadian public is not really up to highly sophisticated conversations about the intricacies of policy proposals or politics in general. It is easy to score easy points with drive by smears and half-truths. In the end, Dalton McGuinty and the Liberal government has the responsibility to do what is best for the province of Ontario, and that is joining the majority of provinces by harmonizing the sales tax.

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D.R.R. 11/4/2009 8:20:01 AM Report

It always struck me as funny how the mass-emailed cost increase breakdown was slanted for the upper income brackets (golf club fees, trips, etc..) - Tory Biased???

I think it would be quite interesting to see a similar breakdown from a common family's perspective. If this was done, it would reflect the average person's life style. That would show a truer impact on the majority of Onatarians (good or bad).

Just my 2-cents.

Buck 11/4/2009 8:34:11 AM Report

since businesses will start saving money when we are taxed more, they will obviously pass those savings on to the customer, right? Just like when they rasied prices because of gas and then lowered them again when the price of gas went down.

I tell you what, I will pay the new tax with a smile if everyone is treated the same way. That means every special interest group, including indians, will pay the new tax. I do not want to hear in the news that some people are exempt.
razor25 11/4/2009 8:59:54 AM Report

D.R.R.

From an average person's perspective, here's what will now be subject to the 8% PST that was previously exempt. Gasoline, heating oil, natural gas, electricity, all prepared food and drinks under $4 (like your daily coffee, bagel, etc.), insurance, haircuts (average people get them too), not to mention all those elitist items like golf club memberships, trips and investment fees. Most of those first few items will impact the poorest sector of our economy the worst. A one time "bonus" of our own money is just a blatant buy-off attempt by the Liberals. A one time payment really doesn't do anything to help people very much. The income tax reduction is a start but not enough to offset all the essentials that are now being taxed. As for businesses getting a tax break, that's great, but as another poster said, they certainly won't be passing on the savings to the consumers. Just like if a carbon cap-and-trade system is implemented, industry won't suck it up and take the hit of the added cost, they'll just increase the cost of their products that you and I buy so don't listen to the environmentalists that say the cap-and-trade system is a tax on the worst polluters. It's a tax on you and me.
right wing 11/4/2009 9:50:26 AM Report

Nice try Justin.

It may save big business money on paper work but little for the mid to small business.
The backbone of the economy.
Every single labour service, lawn care, get your roof shingled, plumber, electrician, siding installed, etc and etc, will now have to charge 8% more.

That is nothing but a tax grab and hits the average family the hardest.
stakeholder 11/4/2009 10:12:24 AM Report

Give your head a shake-then hit it against a wall-concrete perhaps-are you naive or are you thinking that we totally stupid?????
My head is shaking and so are my fists-for the HST to even be considered for implementation- the PST part should be reduced to 2%. This proposed tax is only funding for further robbery and fodder for lies-shame on you for thinking the public is so damn gullible. This HST is only another buy out for the liberals in provincial government this time-accountable government in this province and country is sadly lacking. The city too for that matter. I am disgussed!!!
wilber 11/4/2009 12:43:03 PM Report

Anyone who believes that prices will go down when the HST is implimented is a fool. Just like the fools that elected Mcguinty for another term. When the GST was to replace the MST, prices were supposed to decrease, THAT NEVER HAPPENED. This is nothing more than a tax grab by the provincial liberals, nothing more. The $1,000.00 (family) tax credit is a joke. Why add more tax to the price of gas, there is already enough taxes applied at the pumps. The only why to put this HST to rest is to VOTE OUT THE SCUM SUCKING LIBERALS AT ELECTION TIME !!!
Concerned citizen 11/4/2009 12:58:41 PM Report

Sorry Jusin, you have not convinced me. Just make a list of twenty everyday items that now do not have two taxes but will in future, and see what difference that makes in your pocket, or in that of the average homeowner. Money out of pocket is just that.Everyone will have that much less spending power, especially those who cannot even make ends meet now.
Justin Tetreault 11/4/2009 2:06:07 PM Report

Right Wing-

Your point about small businesses is wrong.

A report released today by the University of Calgary entitled "Ontario's Bold Move to Create Jobs and Growth" found that "small businesses would benefit substantially as the effective tax rate on their business investment would fall by more than half from 28.6 to 13.3 percent"

So not only is it easier for small businesses to handle all of the paperwork, but their tax rate is cut in half.

More from the study:
Over the next 10 years, the HST would lead to:
• 591,000 net new jobs
• Increased capital investment of $47 billion
• Increased annual incomes of up to 8.8 per cent, or $29.4 billion

http://policyschool.ucalgary.ca/publications
Justin Tetreault 11/4/2009 2:08:08 PM Report

And as for the cost savings argument about whether or not businesses would pass them down to consumers, a TD Bank study found that 80% of cost savings would be passed down to consumers in the first year. By the third year, 95% of cost savings will be passed down to the consumer.
Justin Tetreault 11/4/2009 2:19:07 PM Report

Razor:

I'll address your points one by one.

"Gasoline, heating oil, natural gas, electricity, all prepared food and drinks under $4 (like your daily coffee, bagel, etc.), insurance, haircuts (average people get them too), not to mention all those elitist items like golf club memberships, trips and investment fees."

There won't be additional taxes on gasoline. There also will not be additional tax on basic groceries. Most financial services will also not be subject to the HST. There is a more expansive list on things that would not be included here: http://www.rev.gov.on.ca/en/taxchange/consumers.html

"Most of those first few items will impact the poorest sector of our economy the worst."

Both the Daily Bread Food Bank and the Ontario Coalition Against Poverty, two huge social organizations dealing with the poor in Ontario support the HST. That leads me to believe, the poor will come out of this just fine.


"A one time "bonus" of our own money is just a blatant buy-off attempt by the Liberals. A one time payment really doesn't do anything to help people very much."

There is the one time payment of $1000 or $300, but there is also the creation of a permanent sales tax credit of $260 per eligible adult and child (similar to the GST rebate), which will benefit almost 3 million Ontario families. So it's hardly just a 1 time payment.

"The income tax reduction is a start but not enough to offset all the essentials that are now being taxed."

The income tax reduction affects 93% of Ontarians. In fact, 90,000 Ontarians with low incomes would no longer pay any income tax because of the reforms.


"As for businesses getting a tax break, that's great, but as another poster said, they certainly won't be passing on the savings to the consumers."

As I mentioned above, the economists at TD Bank disagree.
learningaswego 11/4/2009 2:19:20 PM Report

Good article, Justin. I blame both the government, and the media, for most of the misinformation out there, on this item.
The government, for - at least so far, very poor communications on this new development.
And the media .... well, what's new there, eh? They'll give the politicized opposition endless airtime to spew inaccuracies and exaggerations - of course never ever questioning them on what they claim; and give the proponents of the the tax what - 10 seconds?
Justin Tetreault 11/4/2009 2:22:28 PM Report

For those interested in how much tax savings and other benefits you will gain because of the tax reforms, check out the calculator at:

http://www.rev.gov.on.ca/en/taxchange/calculators.html

Johnny99 11/4/2009 2:44:14 PM Report

"There won't be additional taxes on gasoline. There also will not be additional tax on basic groceries. Most financial services will also not be subject to the HST."

Could you provide some proof of this because most things I have read say we will pay HST on fuel, mutual funds.
Justin Tetreault 11/4/2009 2:58:19 PM Report

Sorry. I was wrong. Gasoline will be subject to the HST.

I suspect the provincial fuel tax may be lowered a bit to offset the additional PST being collected.

As for the financial services point, I'm going by the list at this site: http://www.rev.gov.on.ca/en/taxchange/consumers.html

Buck 11/4/2009 3:22:24 PM Report

Great! We already pay tax on the tax for gas, why not add some more? Gas is too cheap anyway!
razor25 11/4/2009 3:31:45 PM Report

Justin,

So after your rebuttal, let me repost my list:

Gasoline, heating oil, natural gas, electricity, all prepared food and drinks under $4 (like your daily coffee, bagel, etc.), insurance, haircuts (average people get them too), not to mention all those elitist items like golf club memberships, trips and investment fees.

Oh wait, it's exactly the same...you were wrong about gasoline as you have admitted, I never said anything about basic groceries (which currently are not taxed by GST or PST), just prepared foods under $4 which are currently only subject to GST, but will be subject to both under the HST. As for investment fees, I was talking about any annual/monthly fees you pay to have investment accounts. There may be more on certain mutual fund fees, but I'm not sure.

As for the social organizations you mentioned, perhaps they support the HST because as organizations that currently pay PST on certain items, they may save some money. That does not, however, mean it will be good for their "clients". I don't know this for sure, but I'd need to know the reasons behind their endorsement, not just the fact that they do endorse the HST.

About businesses passing on the savings to us consumers...even with a TD study, I'll believe it when I see it. Studies are all well and good, but they're definitely not always correct.
Justin Tetreault 11/4/2009 3:32:13 PM Report

If you don't have a job because the company you work for can't compete under Ontario's tax system, you won't be buying much gas, no matter what it is taxed at.

As well, if you are saving thousands of dollars in income tax and receiving other rebates, you won't even feel the small increase in the price of gas.
Johnny99 11/4/2009 3:39:08 PM Report

Your daily coffee and muffin that's under $4.00 will be subject to 13%.
So if you spend 3 dollars a day, 5 days a week, times 52 weeks, this is what you will pay:
$3.00 x 5 % gst = $3.15 (15 cents a day times 5 days = $0.75 per week times 52 weeks = $39.00 GST in one year

$3.00 x 13% hst = $3.39 (difference of an extra 24 cents a day times 5 days
= $1.20 per week times 52 weeks = $62.40 more in tax. Sounds like a tax grab to me.
Justin Tetreault 11/4/2009 3:41:01 PM Report

Razor,

Social organizations don't support this because it is good for themselves. The whole point of their existence is to advocate for things that are good for the poor.

“If you're a low income Ontarian this is a positive budget, and I congratulate the government on recognizing that you can fight poverty and stimulate the economic scene at the same time. When you start to think about an extra $42 per month per child and start to look at the one time money coming back and the permanency of the tax credit, the harmonization tax credit, this will make some tangible difference - an extra $100 in these folks pockets are the difference between going to food banks and not going to food banks. We couldn't be happier and we congratulate this budget, and this government on continuing the fight.” —Gail Nyberg, Daily Bread Food Bank, March 26, 2009

Buck 11/4/2009 3:49:59 PM Report

This is a typical tax, increase or whatever you want to call it. The poor will benefit from it, good for them, they need it. The rich, don't care or usually get some benefit for spending some of their money. Thanks guys! The middle class, will pay the tax and get no benefit from it. You can only put so much wieght on a horse's back before it breaks!
Justin Tetreault 11/4/2009 3:52:58 PM Report

Johnny,

Like I said, if you only look at the HST itself, then it looks like a big tax.

But you're not considering the other half of it.

Suppose the person spending $780 a year on coffee and donuts ($3 X 5 X 52) is part of a family. There is the 1 time payment of $1,000 right there.

Their income taxes are also lowered by 16.5%.

Maybe they are also both eligible for the $260 HST credit ($520 total).

Because of the cost savings earned by the coffee shop, maybe they also drop the prices to $2.50. That means instead of $3 X 5% X 5 days X 52 weeks = $819 it would be $2.50 X 13% X 5 X 52= $734. The person would actually save money on coffee/donuts, even though the taxes were higher.

learningaswego 11/4/2009 3:57:30 PM Report

If the Ont. Association of Food Banks and the Centre for Policy whatever - a leftist lefties organization if ever there was one, support this, then the NDP should be congratulating the government and supporting this. But that would mean the Dippers actually, really ARE concerned for low income people, other than getting their votes.

But, in typical HYPOCRISY fashion, the NDP have been railing against this initiative, which obciously must be GOOD for poor people.
NDP - THE party of Hypocrisy
NDP - USELESS for the Sault.
razor25 11/4/2009 4:18:38 PM Report

Hey Justin,

On gasoline, natural gas, electricity, food under $4 and insurance (2 cars and a home), this tax will cost me about $700/year FOREVER (and it probably doesn't capture all the extra costs since I only considered the bigger ticket items). That's more than the annual tax savings forecast on the calculator you gave a link for (which is a joke because it only focuses on savings, not on what the extra costs of this tax are).
mvnnth 11/4/2009 4:51:51 PM Report

Those that are weeping, wailing and gnashing their teeth over what they perceive is a "tax grab" would ignore a very large problem heading our way. That large problem is in the form of a $20 plus billion deficit that the residents/government of Ontario are going to experience this year. You say you don't want to pay any more taxes? Just what do you want to do then? Someone is going to have to do some serious digging before you can even begin to get your head out of the sand.
If you don't want to pay more taxes then you, probably, are going to have your services cut. I asked this question a few weeks ago, and didn't get much of an answer, when it was going to be an $18 billion deficit. What do you want to cut? What can you do with less of, education? healthcare? No, I didn't think so. What then?

You just close your eyes and maybe it will just magically disappear and we will all live happily ever after. We are going to have to wake up sooner or later.
Crabs 11/4/2009 11:23:26 PM Report

Here's a suggestion for your next column: Why John Chretien Gave 329 Million Dollars To His Chums In Quebec To Run A Swine Flu Lab That Can't Produce." I seen Iggy on T.V. today still hammering away at the Cons over a screw-up from his own party 10 years ago.
razor25 11/5/2009 9:43:50 AM Report

mvnnth,

Yes, we're facing a roughly $25 billion deficit in Ontario this year. Why? Because even though the Liberals have raised our taxes outrageously over the course of their tenure (health care tax, anyone?), they just spend, spend, spend. Dalton hasn't met a problem he won't just throw money at and hope it goes away. He's one of the most fiscally irresponsible Premiere's I've ever seen. It didn't matter all that much when times were good, but now that we've hit a recession and all our manufacturing jobs in Ontario are disappearing, we're in a tight spot. Never mind the $1 Billion waste on e-health and other similar wastes that are becoming apparent. So yes, there are going to have to be some cuts, but adding a tax that hurts the poor and middle class the most is not the way to fix things.
mvnnth 11/5/2009 12:13:31 PM Report

"there are going to have to be some cuts, but adding a tax that hurts the poor and middle class the most is not the way to fix things."
You make convincing points.
To be fair though, the government has made some sounds, and even moved, to help families in the lower end of the economic spectrum. The tax cut will certainly help and hopefully offset the effect of the HST. Cuts alone will not be able to accomplish all that must happen to balance our books. The big spenders (education and healthcare) are going to have to bear the brunt of the cost reduction. Radical changes are going to have to be made in the delivery and the method of payment for primary healthcare. Co-payment, for those that are financially able, may be the only way to get us out of this mess.
Teacher remuneration packages, in my opinion, are out of line and need to be adjusted to reflect the fiscal situation in which we find ourselves. It isn't going to be pretty and it isn't going to be swift. Ontario is a very different place now and higher taxes may be among the least of the worries of the next generation.
razor25 11/5/2009 2:35:30 PM Report

What I don't understand is how did we go from having a bad healthcare system, then McGuinty implemented his massive "healthcare" tax and now we have a much worse system? How do you make a system worse by getting billions more dollars in revenue for it? Well, we know he wasted $1 billion on ehealth but he's taken in a lot more than that, what did he do with the rest?

Anyway mvnnth, I agree with you on teachers, especially with how quickly their salary ramps up. They can be maxed out on salary in something like 10 years and that's a very hefty salary. It's not necessarily out of line but it should take more like 20 - 25 years to max out in your respective profession (at least that's more typical). Also, as far as I know it's based on years of teaching and not merit based so that just promotes laziness. Earnings should always be merit based in my opinion.
Crabs 11/5/2009 3:04:59 PM Report

"Al Apps with his pants down"...find a happy place,find a happy place find a happy place.
mvnnth 11/5/2009 3:13:42 PM Report

"How do you make a system worse by getting billions more dollars in revenue for it?"
I don't think there is enough money in the whole world to treat all our ailments. I think that we have to find a way to get people to think twice before they access primary healthcare. The only way I can think of to accomplish that is to start charging for things that are not necessary. An example of that is what is happening involving this H1N1 vaccination program. Can we afford to vaccinate everyone? Maybe public health can provide H1N1 vaccine for those most at risk and least able to withstand the disease and then provide it at a cost to the rest of the population. I don't think we need more money in healthcare, we just need to manage the money more effectively.

As to teachers' salaries I don't think much can be done to the salary levels now but I was referring to other parts of their remuneration package. One thing (and this might already be happening) is to put an end to the banking of sick days. Another key is withdrawing the right to strike. For that matter I don't think anyone in public service should be allowed to withdraw their services as a bargaining tactic.
razor25 11/5/2009 3:26:51 PM Report

Ok, I've got a good idea....take away their right to strike and THEN make their raises merit based : )
FrankieC 11/5/2009 5:06:04 PM Report

Mvnnth, let me just say your ideas, while considerate, are a little bit off. First of all, Dalton McGuinty is spending money on useless things other than healthcare and education that put both of those in risk of being flushed down the toilet. Here is one example; Seatbelt checks. I don't know about you, but I don't care if another person isn't wearing their seatbelt. While there is some revenue being generated from these random checks, think about the officers conducting the roadside check being paid and the gas for the police cruisers being wasted while the whole thing is going on. That's only one example. Take a look at the MNR as well. They harass honest, tax paying Canadians who already pay enough to hunt and fish, and slap them in the face with outrageous fines when they make a mistake, or break a law they didnt even know existed (I think they just make up laws so they can hand out fines now). Worse off, the MNR wants to put more restrictions on fishing and hunting limits, saying hunters are consuming way too much. Quite the pile of bullsh*t. The government's stupid little projects and construction/expansion are killing wildlife because animals habitats are being taken away. What a waste of tax dollars which could have be put towards healthcare or education. Taking away crown hunting/fishing land from honest tax paying citizens and letting American tourists have first dibs on it is yet another magical doing of the Libs, but I won't open that can of worms. As long as this excuse for a government goes on, I won't give the Liberals my vote.

On a different note, I am enjoying the fact that long gun registry is one step closer to being nixed. Maybe now some tax dollars can be freed to be put towards worthy projects. Yay for the Conservatives.
Oldie Goldie 11/5/2009 5:11:32 PM Report

Justin---Shake your head a bit---The tax on gasoline which is now a fixed amount with the P.S.T. only will become enjoined with the G.S.T. that will rise as the price of gas rises and the P.S.T. will rise along with it.
Oldie Goldie 11/5/2009 5:53:23 PM Report

Justin:You are too young to remember what was promised when the G.S.T. was brought in--Mulroney said that the G.S.T. would replace a hidden
Manufacturers Tax and the believe was that the Consumer would get lower prices as that tax was removed---Well, It didn't happen then and the Consumer will NOT get lower prices when the H.S.T. removes the Retailer Tax next year either.

You must really think that the people of Ontario are stupid to believe the crap that you and McGuinty are spinning out on the H.S.T.

Many Economists are telling us that the average family of 4 in Ontario will pay an extra $ 2150 each year in taxes for the H.S.T.
The check for $300 or $1000 on a one-time payment is nothing but a Pre-Election ploy by McGuinty.

The Federal Government will also get a Cash Grab because the G.S.T. will also be added to things that only have P.S.T. now.

If you want a list of the many things that will rise with the H.S.T. I would be happy to oblige but I have written enough for now.
As Usual 11/5/2009 9:55:56 PM Report

Oldie, with all due respect, you are incorrect with your statement. Prices did go lower. Take a look at the Consumer Price Index as proof.

I agreed with the implementation of the GST because the excise tax it replaced was a nasty hidden manufacturer's tax that was applied on Canadian manufacturers only. We were putting our companies at a competitive disadvantage and costing Canada jobs.

I do not agree with the HST however. This is a tax grab on the part of the Liberal government. In theory, some prices will go lower. If the Liberals wanted to make this revenue neutral, they should have lowered the rate.

I will put out a warning to all of you people who rent apartments. In a normal business, the business owner will get an input tax credit for the tax they pay. Their costs are going to decrease. That is reason, in theory, some prices will decrease. However, owners of residential buildings do not get these input tax credits. While a lot of expenses incurred to operate (let's say) an apartment building already attract PST, one of their largest expenses do not. That would be utilities. Also labour for repairs and maintenance do not attract PST.

I believe landlords will be looking for large increases in rent. This won't happen in 2010, but it will happen in 2011.
off to ottawa 11/6/2009 7:02:13 AM Report

does that $1000 rebate come before or after I pay my $1000 healthcare tax that was implimented in the first term by this government.
wait until you are a hotshot lawyer and start paying taxes. you will be singing a different song.
learningaswego 11/6/2009 9:10:24 AM Report

mvnth is right on.
Rational, reality thinking people (usually small c conservative) know the ONLY way we can continue with our healthcare system, is to have small fees for some of the smaller things; but for people who are legitimately low income, these costs would be less or waved completely. Healthcare already consumes OVER 50% of our tax revenues, and a) the costs are growing much faster than the rate of inflation and b) with our aging population, it is going to grow even faster in the future. We must also begin to teach people, as soon as possible, to take more responsibility for their own health.
Ken W 11/6/2009 9:14:30 AM Report

At first I was vey suspicious of the HST. But when you take a step back and look at the entire tax reform package it is not as bad as it seems.

The government is lowering the personal income tax rate. This means we get to keep more of what we work for. This is very important. It means consumers will have more discretionary cash to make intelligent purchases.

There will be a better tax strucuture for business. This should contribute to job growth. Lower business tax and personal income tax are incentives to work.

If anything is going to be taxed, it should always be consumption, never labour. By raising the taxes on goods people may be more inclined to save.

In reality, the income tax cut will likely just offset the increase sales tax, but ultimately it should result in more jobs being created. In addition, it makes the tax structure look more like it should; Low income tax, High consumption tax!
Oldie Goldie 11/6/2009 12:19:45 PM Report

Ken W---you said--Labour should never be taxed--Well. That is one of the things that will be taxed with the H.S.T.---Labour costs on home improvements carries only G.S.T. as of now---with the H.S.T. those labour costs will rise another 8 % as of next July.
Oldie Goldie 11/6/2009 12:26:34 PM Report

As Usual---Let's look at Car Prices pre G.S.T. and post G.S.T.---Show me where the prices dropped after the G.S.T.

The Manufacturing Tax on Cars was supposed to be eliminated with the G.S.T. but the Consumer continued to pay just as much and more for cars after the G.S.T.
Oldie Goldie 11/6/2009 12:30:18 PM Report

Justin---Try to explain the H.S.T. to a resident of Nursing Homes who will pay an extra $ 1.50 a day after the H.S.T.
That is $ 45 more per month or $ 530 more per year---just for the extra taxes.
Justin Tetreault 11/6/2009 1:26:37 PM Report

"Ken W---you said--Labour should never be taxed--Well. That is one of the things that will be taxed with the H.S.T.---Labour costs on home improvements carries only G.S.T. as of now---with the H.S.T."

Oldie, that is consumption though, not labour. The person doing the labouring doesn't have to pay extra taxes on the work they do. They will pay less because of lower personal income taxes.

It is the person consuming the labour (by having someone work on their house) that will be subject to the HST.
Oldie Goldie 11/6/2009 2:42:04 PM Report

Justin--I don't care how you spin it---The Labour costs on Home Repairs will go up another 8 %

3 years ago I spent $ 7000 on home repairs and the G.S.T. was 7%--at that time--so I paid $ 490 G.S.T.

Whoever repairs their home after July 2010 will spend another 8% for the Labour---so that $ 7000 job will have 13 % added---or $ 910 H.S.T.

Spin it however you like--- The owner will pay a lot more for
Home Repairs after the H.S.T. starts.

I have heard a rumor that a Black Market in Home Repairs will increase to avoid paying the extra taxes.

Justin---You were wrong on Gas prices and you will be wrong on many other issues with the H.S.T.
You and the Ontario Liberals are experts at trying to fool the voters.

But I. for one, am not fooled easily.

McGuinty brought in the Largest Tax increase in the History of Ontario after he was first elected on a platform of NO TAX INCREASES---This H.S.T. will be the second largest Tax increase since his election.

Just because the Ontario Liberals ran up the largest deficit in history ---even much larger than Bob Rae ever had--does not justify nailing the taxpayers for the Liberal mistakes.
mvnnth 11/6/2009 3:56:54 PM Report

Oldie Goldie

I'm just guessing here but I would think that you don't want to pay any more taxes. Good for you and I don't think you are alone. As Ken W pointed out though, you do have a way out, actually two ways. First way, don't buy anything that attracts the HST because it is primarily a consumption tax(maybe not practical) or second way, move to Manitoba. Their premier has recently stated that the HST is not going to be a part of their next budget.
As I pointed out yesterday, we are going to have a hard time (probably impossible) balancing the books without paying a lot more tax. You can only cut so much out of services.
Justin Tetreault 11/6/2009 4:26:49 PM Report

Oh know. I didn't realize Oldie heard a rumour. I'm wrong. Time to cancel the HST.
autumn 11/6/2009 11:21:08 PM Report

Justin must be related to Josh Pringle.
realitycheck 11/7/2009 8:20:13 AM Report

Oldie:
Actually, when the GST was implemented it was supposed to be revenue neutral. It was simply to replace the former manufacturing tax but provide government the same revenue.
In regard to the HST, I am not against it but I think the simplest way to implement it would have been to lower the PST a point. If that had been done, there probably would have been little if any protest. The complicated way the government has given tax breaks looks more like it was designed to confuse and hide a massive tax grab rather than explain something that is legitimate.
Oldie Goldie 11/7/2009 12:21:59 PM Report

Justin---Your latest comment of attacking the Messenger instead of the
Issue is typical Liberal rhetoric.

Your comment about me is just like any smart ass would do--You will never make it as a Lawyer if you are not willing to listen to both sides of the Issue.

I have yet to read your response to the extra taxes that Seniors in Nursing homes will have to pay---or maybe you will ignore that because it shows something that will cause trouble for a few Million sick Seniors when the H.S.T. starts.

Many Chambers of Commerce across Ontario have opposed the H.S.T.---our Local Chamber has yet to take a stand.
I am still waiting for their response.

Oldie Goldie 11/7/2009 12:34:12 PM Report

Mvnnth--You are correct---Mulroney said that the G.S.T. would remove the hidden
Manufacturing Tax---but he also said that the Consumer would get lower prices when that hidden Tax was removed.
Please show me what prices were lowered then !

By the way--Mvnnth---If I was to move to avoid more taxes I would go to Alberta---they,too, will never bring in the H.S.T.
right wing 11/7/2009 12:37:23 PM Report

"I have heard a rumor that a Black Market in Home Repairs will increase to avoid paying the extra taxes."

This is no rumor. The black market has always existed and in more areas than just home repairs.
The black market in home repairs is massive. The government knows it and has tried in the past to put an end to it.
Several years ago they tried to implement a filing form that would make it mandatory for all contractors to submit the names of anybody they sub-contracted work to.
This way they could check the list of names to see if they were set up as a legit business.
The majority of contractors refused to fill them out and it was scrapped. There is power in the people!

You are absolutely correct Oldie this is going to increase the black market more then ever.
Oldie Goldie 11/7/2009 12:44:30 PM Report

Reality check---Yes the G.S.T. saved money for the Manufaturer and the Government took all of the savings from that tax by putting it on to the Consumer so that the Feds would not lose any revenue---but the Consumer got no savings either but had to pay more for a lot of things.

Don't hold your breath waiting for McGuinty to lower any of the P.S.T. when the H.S.T. starts.

But don't you think that it is a little strange for McGuinty to offer any Income Tax reductions whe his deficit is the highest that Ontario ever had ?
He is going to make up for any Tax decreases---and more---when the H.S.T. starts and the Cash Cow begins.
Oldie Goldie 11/7/2009 12:52:17 PM Report

right wing--Read my response again---I never said that a Black Market will begin---I said it would Increase because the Taxes on each job will go up.
I am fully aware of the existing Black Market and it, basically, started when the G.S.T. started---now it will increase because the P.S.T. will be added to the G.S.T. making it more lucrative for a customer to go to a Black Marketer.
Oldie Goldie 11/7/2009 12:54:39 PM Report

right wing---tell Justin about the increase in the Home Repair Black Market---he laughed at me for saying it.
Oldie Goldie 11/7/2009 1:19:38 PM Report

Justin---You must really be proud of the Ontario Liberal Government.
McGuinty has taken us from being a HAVE Province to being a HAVE NOT Province.
Great work McGuinty !
Justin Tetreault 11/7/2009 4:27:02 PM Report

Oldie- Show me one Chamber of Commerce that has opposed the HST in Ontario.
Oldie Goldie 11/7/2009 4:44:24 PM Report

Justin: I read the latest C of C report locally and it showed that many C of C's opposed the H.S.T. because many consumers will cut back on spending and hurt the Retailers---I don't have the Report with me but it should not be hard to find--even you could find it, Justin.
You will have to trust me on this just like you want us to trust you on your support of the H.S.T.
Justin Tetreault 11/7/2009 5:16:06 PM Report

Maybe you got the report from the same person you heard the rumour from.

Show me. I can show you that 258 Chambers of Commerence across the country support the HST. http://www.northernlife.ca/news/localNews/2009/oct/hst_gscc_081009.aspx

The Ontario Chamber of Commerence, which represents 160 local chambers of commerce supports the HST.

Can you show me even 1 that is against it?
Justin Tetreault 11/7/2009 5:17:36 PM Report

Wow. I should proof read. Commerce
As Usual 11/7/2009 5:21:11 PM Report

Oldie, with all due respect, how about you showing us some facts instead. All you say is prices went up when the GST came in (in response to me, you said cars). Show me where car prices went up because of the GST.

Your repetitive comments don't make them right, just makes them repetitive. Back up your argument with something, anything.
Sam C 11/8/2009 8:50:31 AM Report

"I am fully aware of the existing Black Market and it, basically, started when the G.S.T. started...."

LOL! Yeah, Oldie... there was basically NO "black market" before the GST. (Oh, my aching sides!)
Oldie Goldie 11/8/2009 9:18:21 AM Report

Justin--Show me where the Local Chamber of Commerce came out in public support of the H.S.T.---I have researched their reports and they have yet to state their support or opposition for the H.S.T.
I do know that the Ontario Association of Retired people--a division of C.A.R.P.---are opposed to it and they represent about 1 million seniors in Ontario.
Perhaps I will respond to your request when you answer my request about the increase of $ 1.50 a day for Seniors in Nursing Homes.
The Sault Real Estate Board have also came out in opposition to the H.S.T.
Oldie Goldie 11/8/2009 9:22:39 AM Report

As Usual---I don't recall saying that prices went up BECAUSE of the G.S.T. but I did say that prices did not go down as Mulroney said they would when the Manufacturers Tax was removed.
Can you show me where prices did go down ?
Oldie Goldie 11/8/2009 9:29:43 AM Report

Sam C.---You are always complaining about other posters twisting your words around---Now you are twisting mine---I NEVER said that there was NO Black Market in Housing Repairs before the G.S.T.---What I said was that the Black Market basically started in earnest after the G.S.T. and that it will expand even more after the H.S.T.
Again you are using Smart Ass remarks by twisting my words.
Oldie Goldie 11/8/2009 9:44:25 AM Report

Justin---Ontario is not the only Province to start the H.S.T.---British Columbia is also getting ready to start their H.S.T.---I hope you are keeping up on the opposition to the H.S.T. in B.C. too---By the way--Why don't you admit that both B.C. and Ontario will get billions of dollars from the feds to join their P.S.T. with the G.S.T.---These gifts from the feds are a big factor in both provinces harmonizing their taxes with the feds.
Sam C 11/8/2009 1:36:06 PM Report

Oldie... indeed! And I will continue to do so, so long as your words don't quite make sense.

First you said "it, basically, started when the G.S.T. started," then you qualified that by saying "that the Black Market basically started in earnest after the G.S.T...," both of which really are not accurate.

As right wing explained, there has always been a Black Market in the construction/home renovation industry, and not just because people are trying to avoid paying tax on the renovations they are having done.

It is more the case that some "contractors" (many unlicensed) did work under the table so they would not have to pay INCOME TAX.

No doubt the GST, PST, and soon the HST will have some affect, but not to the extent you are predicting.
Oldie Goldie 11/8/2009 1:41:10 PM Report

As Usual----To Buy a New Car after the G.S.T. came in meant that you had to pay 7% more than before G.S.T. because removing the Manufacturing Tax for Auto Makers did not lower the price of the car---To me that is paying more for a new car after the G.S.T. than before.
I clearly remember buying a new car after the G.S.T. and I paid 7% more than what I would have paid before the G.S.T.---Bottom Line---The price of cars
for me went up and so it did for anyone who bought a car after the G.S.T.

Perhaps you can show me where the price of a car after the G.S.T.went down 7% which was the cost of the G.S.T.
Oldie Goldie 11/8/2009 1:57:47 PM Report

Sam C.---What is so difficult for you to understand---I gave you the example of a $ 7000 Home Renovation in 2006 and what that same job will cost after July 2010---The G.S.T. on that job in 2006 was $ 490---after July 2010 the H.S.T. for the same job will be $ 910---simple math shows another $ 420 more.

You are a Teacher---Do you teach Math ?

1 more example then I will stop---
After July 2010 a Senior in a Nursing Home will pay an extra $ 1.50 per day just for the extra tax in the H.S.T.

Again simple Math shows that to be
$ 45 more per month or $ 547.50 more per year.

Where are the exxagerations here that you don't understand ?
Oldie Goldie 11/8/2009 2:05:28 PM Report

Justin---The costs for Lawyer's Services to sell or buy a house or get a Mortgage or get a Will will add another 8% to their Fees---That is why the Soo Real Estate Board opposes the H.S.T.

Perhaps you will find that out when and if you become a Lawyer !
As Usual 11/8/2009 2:11:35 PM Report

Oldie, I clearly remember buying a new car after the G.S.T. and even though I paid G.S.T, I paid the the same price for the car in total---Bottom Line---The price of cars for me stayed the same for me and so it did for anyone who bought a car after the G.S.T.

Perhaps you can show me where the price of a car after the G.S.T.went up 7%.

Gee Oldie, who is right, you or me?
Oldie Goldie 11/8/2009 2:15:32 PM Report

Justin---I had a large tree cut down on my property 2 tears ago---I paid no G.S.T. because the Contractor was a First Nation Contractor and he does not collect G.S.T.

You can bet that I, and others wanting to get a tree cut down, will be more inclined to use that same Contractor after the H.S.T. because that same Contractor will not collect the H.S.T. either.

That is not Black Market it is just avoiding extra taxes.

How do you think that Local Contractors will feel about that issue ?
Oldie Goldie 11/8/2009 2:17:36 PM Report

Oops---years ago---not tears ago---on second thought there were some tears too about having to cut down that tree.
Oldie Goldie 11/8/2009 2:34:38 PM Report

Justin---The G.S.T. was to be a tax on Goods and Services---that is what it was intended to be when it started----and the P.S.T. was to be a tax on Sales Items---that is what it was intended to be when it started.

Those original intentions are now cast aside by both Governments all in the name of collecting more taxes for more things at the expense of the Consumer.

It may well be that Businesses create jobs but it is the Consumer that keeps it going. If the Consumer has to pay more for most things they buy then that buying will slacken off to buying only the essentials.

I ask you. Justin, how will less buying get us out of this recession ?

The bribe checks before the next election will not even come near to the extra costs the Consumer will pay.

The proposed Tax cuts won't put much more money in to the Consumer's pockets either.

Tax Increases in times of Recessions just does not make any economic sense---any good Economist will tell you that.
Oldie Goldie 11/8/2009 2:40:17 PM Report

As Usual---Perhaps you did not experience---first hand--paying the first G.S.T. on a new car like I did.

It certainly made me mad and I cursed Mulroney for the first time.

That car was the same price as just before the G.S.T. but it cost me 7% more.
Oldie Goldie 11/8/2009 2:50:32 PM Report

Justin----Why don't you ask the Used Car Dealers about the H.S.T.

People who buy Used Cars after the H.S.T. will pay another 5% more because there is only 1 Tax on a used car now and the H.S.T. will increase that tax after next July.

Are Used Car Dealers not Members of the Chamber of Commerce ?

People tend to forget that not only will the P.S.T. be added to things that have only G.S.T. now BUT the G.S.T. will be added to things that have only P.S.T. now under the H.S.T.

Why else would the Feds give money to Ontario---They will get their piece of the pie too.
Crabs 11/8/2009 3:48:53 PM Report

I was about to sign up for home renovations and got three different quotes from 3 reputable local companies. All were within aprox. 10% of each other with a total cost of about $20,000.00. With the Liberal gouging about to start I changed my mind. With the Canadian dollar probably reaching parity with the American dollar sometime in the next few months I have already started compiling a list of materials from Menards across the ditch. The money I save will more than pay for a few trained pros to do this job "under the table".
WENIP 11/8/2009 4:52:26 PM Report

How can the province lower the tax on the first 36K by 16.05%, when it is only at 6.05% now, will they be giving a 10% rebate to everyone under that mark? And actually Alberta has a lower provincial rate, even thought they have a flat 10%, their personal amount is 16775, for both you and spouse, where as Ontario only offers 8881.00. This actually being the lowest of most, and lets not forget the new Health Levy (TAX!!!) that was added by the Fiberal McGuinty. You should really do your homework Justin and not copy and paste everything the Party sends you.
Sam C 11/8/2009 4:54:03 PM Report

Let's be honest, Oldie... it won't matter how many examples you offer, nor how many are refuted by myself and others. You just want everyone to hold hands and chant "we shall overcome" and agree with you that the sky is falling because some prices may go up after the implementation of the HST.

Guess what, Oldie... taxes have been around since Biblical times, and people have been complaining about them ever since.

Always remember the other side of that coin, though. People keep demanding that governments provide more and more services. Guess where governments get the money to pay for those services?

You say the new car you bought was the same price after the GST was implemented, but you had to pay 7% more because of the new tax?

First of all, I question that. The removal of the 13% manufacturers tax on not only the car itself, but on the components that made up the car should have meant a lower retail price -- perhaps you were gouged?

Still, you went ahead and bought the car, didn't you? You didn't say "hell no," and refuse to buy it so as to not pay the extra tax. You didn't decide on a cheaper model in order to realize a savings. You bought the car. And paid the GST.

And that is, for the most part, what will happen after the HST comes in. People will gripe, but they will make their purchases anyway ---- just like YOU did.

Sam C 11/8/2009 4:55:49 PM Report

By the way, Oldie... there was nothing difficult to understand about your example, nor was I refuting your math.

I was merely challenging your specious claim that the "Black Market" only really took off after the GST was implemented.
Crabs 11/8/2009 5:12:16 PM Report

Looks like a few more rats are leaving the good ship "Iggy". Two of his close aides just resigned. Bob Rae continues to lick his lips. Hey Iggy: howza bout those by-elections tomorrow?
Oldie Goldie 11/8/2009 5:21:42 PM Report

As Usual--I respect your recall of those days but in order for you to pay the same price, including the G.S.T. then the price of the car had to come down 7 % after the G.S.T. started and I don't recall the prices of cars dropping 7 %.
Oldie Goldie 11/8/2009 5:42:52 PM Report

Sam C.---I do appreciate what you are saying but I have to question your statement that "some " prices will go up.

There certainly will be a lot more than " some " prices that will go up and that is what I am trying to state when Justin claims that only a few things will be affected by the H.S.T. and they will be offset by the Tax decreases.


You and Justin appear to be on the same page about the H.S.T.

If Justin is right then why does
McGuinty want to even start a NEW TAX during recessionary times ?

Yes, Some form of taxes have been around since Bible times but Canada really only started taxing Canadians heavily to help out with expenses of the First World War and after the war those taxes were to be rescinded---Ya right!

And Chretien was supposed to get rid of the G.S.T.===Ya right !

If McGuinty has built up a 24 Billion Dollar deficit then why raise taxes and offset them with Tax decreases ?

Even the average Ontario Citizen has to question McGuinty's Economics and yours and Justin's too since you all appear to agree.
Oldie Goldie 11/8/2009 5:47:48 PM Report

Sam C. I feel much better trying to inform someone of a pending problem than wait until after it happens and then say " I told you so "
but it looks like I will have to wait until I can say " I tried to tell you "
Sam C 11/8/2009 6:23:15 PM Report

Oldie... I have never denied that there will be some price increases. I say "some" because not ALL prices will increase -- despite "rumours" and suspect e-mails and internet warnings.

Whether you and others take up the cause to warn us, or wait and say "I told you so," the result will be the same -- the HST is coming.

I'm not a fan of tax increases but I recognize that, for the most part, they are inevitable. There will not be a "Tea Party" revolt -- remember, Bostonians weren't objecting to paying taxes, they were objecting to taxation without representation: they didn't get a vote in electing their overseas government.

As I said earlier, people will grumble but will nonetheless pay the increase -- much as you did despite your opposition to the GST.
Crabs 11/8/2009 7:34:42 PM Report

Maybe we should have a "Tea Party". After years of no representation from a government that seems out of control with zero regard for an over-taxed electorate. Most people agree that taxes have to be paid for the good of all citizens. What most people (except Liberals apparently) don't agree on is unfettered government waste with no repercussions. Ontario Hydro, E-health etc. etc. the list is endless. The McGuinty gov't seems to think that the citizens of Ontario are mindless sheep with an inexhaustible supply of cash all earmarked "Taxes".
Justin Tetreault 11/8/2009 7:37:41 PM Report

WENIP,

"How can the province lower the tax on the first 36K by 16.05%, when it is only at 6.05%"

They are lowering the current rate by 16%. It's not hard to figure out. It's not 6-16= -10, it's 6-16%= 5.08.
Justin Tetreault 11/8/2009 7:41:35 PM Report

"If Justin is right then why does
McGuinty want to even start a NEW TAX during recessionary times?"

Could it possibly be that he is trying to make Ontario a better place to do business so that more companies are attracted to Ontario, leading to more jobs, etc? There's got to be a reason why so many financial groups and Chambers of Commerce love this policy.

Justin Tetreault 11/8/2009 7:45:17 PM Report

"If McGuinty has built up a 24 Billion Dollar deficit then why raise taxes and offset them with Tax decreases ?"

The idea is that the tax changes will make Ontario a more attractive place to do business, and thus there will be a bigger tax base.

New and larger corporations will be paying corporate taxes and all of their employees will be paying income taxes on the money they earn. The HST is supposed to be revenue neutral (hence the rebates etc), but the government will end up on the plus side because of the extra corporate and income tax revenue. It's not the HST that is going to fill the government coffers, it is the positive economic spinoff from it.

Plus, the new jobs will take people out of the social system, leading to lower government expenditures.
KDawg 11/8/2009 8:02:33 PM Report

"Always remember the other side of that coin, though. People keep demanding that governments provide more and more services. Guess where governments get the money to pay for those services?"

Sam C, please answer this question: What services are the public demanding more of, exactly? And don't confuse that with the public demanding that the government stop eroding current services and wasting money (most recent example being the eHealth debacle). Until the waste and corruption in Ontario's government is addressed, ANY tax increase is obscene.

BTW, after the Liberals HST tax increase, what services will they be increasing?
learningaswego 11/8/2009 8:16:04 PM Report

Holy cow, Justin, you're starting to sound like a (small "c") conservative. You're actually starting to make sense, sound rational even. Are you sure you're in the right party? Or, maybe you're just maturing, like so many young people (I was one) who start off thinking socialist schemes are the answer.
Then of course, you start working, and paying taxes, and by the time you're about 30, you want nothing to do with socialism and the parasites that feed off of it.
Sam C 11/9/2009 8:46:03 AM Report

Crabs... we DO have representation, even if the government, and specifically our elected representative, don't always vote the way you may want.


KDawg... why NOT include stopping the erosion of current services? The alternative to the cutbacks would be increased costs, would it not? And if we are unwilling to see those services reduced, then shouldn't we expect to pay more tax to cover the cost?

You must have heard people demanding that "the government should do something?" whether that be repairs and improvements to roads, bridges and other infrastructre (provincial, municipal); a Passport Office (federal); increased traffic enforcement (provincial, municipal), and other such demands?

Where does the money come from for these projects and services?
learningaswego 11/9/2009 10:51:30 AM Report

Justin, the way Iggy's tanking the Liberals - and after today's by-elections tanking even worse, maybe you'll be looking for a new (small c conservative) party soon? Either a new party or new "leader", because Iggy sure as hell ain't one.
Justin Tetreault 11/9/2009 11:32:16 AM Report

The Liberals didn't hold any of the seats that are being contested today. I don't think anyone really expected to pick them up, no matter who the leader is.
Oldie Goldie 11/9/2009 12:34:06 PM Report

Justin---One of your rationalizations for the need for the H.S.T. comes from a Calgary Report---amazing that any Ontario Liberal would use a Calgary Report when Calgary cannot even convince their own Province to go to the H.S.T.

Alberta which is more business oriented than Ontario has outright rejected any H.S.T.--even after the Feds offered them an incentive.

After next July we will still have 5 Provinces who won't put extra taxes on their Citizens---Alberta--Saskatchewan--Manitoba---Quebec and Newfoundland--all who won't go to the H.S.T.

What do they know that Ontario and B.C. don't ?

Don't forget, Justin, that a lot of the extra taxes with the H.S.T will go directly to the FEDERAL coffers who are going to get in on a piece of the Tax pie in Ontario---hence their incentive offer.
Oldie Goldie 11/9/2009 12:43:31 PM Report

Justin--Do you really believe that a
" Revenue Neutral " new Tax will benefit Ontario who now has a 24 Billion Dollar Deficit.

What new Tax will McGuinty bring in to help pay off the huge deficit if the H.S.T. will not help pay the deficit ?

If you say that it will take 10 years or more for the H.S.T. to have any real effect then we could be in another Recession by that time.

Recent History has shown a Recession approx. every 10 years.

Then McGuinty will never pay off the huge deficit that he has incurred---much more than Mike Harris and Bob Rae combined ever had.
Oldie Goldie 11/9/2009 12:55:20 PM Report

Justin--Here is another one for you to chew on---HAIRCUTS will go up another
$ 1---How can we avoid a haircut even if we cut down on our spending---That $1 will be only for the extra taxes--The Barbers could raise their own rates on top of that--Barbers usually raise their rates about once a year to make up for the extra costs of their supplies---which will also cost more because of the H.S.T.

Justin--I promise to keep them coming one at a time to show the readers what they will pay extra after July 2010.

Some Posters have responded that we could cut back from buying a lot of things to save on the extra taxes---

Tell me how to be socially acceptable if I stop getting haircuts ?
Oldie Goldie 11/9/2009 1:00:42 PM Report

Here's another one for all you Greyhound Fans---Next year your tickets will go up another $1 per game just for the H.S.T.---who knows how much the Greyhounds will raise them on top of that.
Justin Tetreault 11/9/2009 2:41:01 PM Report

Oldie;

Maybe you should just stop commenting because you are beginning to look petty and foolish.

Point by point rebuttal:

"Justin---One of your rationalizations for the need for the H.S.T. comes from a Calgary Report---amazing that any Ontario Liberal would use a Calgary Report when Calgary cannot even convince their own Province to go to the H.S.T."

1. Alberta doesn't have the HST because they don't even have a provincial sales tax. They have no tax to harmonize.
2. The report is by Jack Mintz, an academic at the University of Calgary. He is the former President and CEO of the C.D. Howe Institute. The numbers and data he used doesn't change based on the school he is at. Would the report be any more valid if he currently taught at the University of Toronto? The University of Calgary has one of the best economics programs in the country. Stephen Harper is a graduate of their economics program. Mintz is recognized as one of Canada's tax experts. Where he has decided to teach is irrelevant to the findings.

"Alberta which is more business oriented than Ontario has outright rejected any H.S.T.--even after the Feds offered them an incentive."

Show me where the federal government has offered Alberta an incentive to have an HST. As mentioned above, they don't have a sales tax to harmonize!

"After next July we will still have 5 Provinces who won't put extra taxes on their Citizens---Alberta--Saskatchewan--Manitoba---Quebec and Newfoundland--all who won't go to the H.S.T."

Wrong again. Newfoundland was one of the first provinces to harmonize their sales tax. They did it in 1996.

"Don't forget, Justin, that a lot of the extra taxes with the H.S.T will go directly to the FEDERAL coffers who are going to get in on a piece of the Tax pie in Ontario---hence their incentive offer."

Another error. While the federal government is collecting the tax, they don't get anything extra out of this. They get the 5% GST portion. The rest goes to the province. The reason that they are giving incentives to provinces to harmonize is simply to help stimulate the economy by making Canada a better place to do business.
Justin Tetreault 11/9/2009 2:46:17 PM Report

More correcting

"Justin--Do you really believe that a
" Revenue Neutral " new Tax will benefit Ontario who now has a 24 Billion Dollar Deficit.

What new Tax will McGuinty bring in to help pay off the huge deficit if the H.S.T. will not help pay the deficit ?

If you say that it will take 10 years or more for the H.S.T. to have any real effect then we could be in another Recession by that time."

The tax is revenue neutral. The economic impact is not, as I explained above. More jobs are created because the tax system is more attactive to companies. This will lead to more people and corporations paying taxes, more people spending money, and greater revenues. As well, as more people, fewer people will require social assistance leading to lower provincial expenditures.

One of the biggest reasons for the deficit is the huge drop in corporate tax revenue collected by the province because the manufacturing sector is decimated. By attracting more companies to Ontario, the deficit will be reduced simply because there will be more corporations paying taxes again.

Also, where did I say that the HST will take 10 years to have a real effect? It's going to have an effect from day 1. As soon as the tax system in Ontario is changed, it becomes more attractive for companies to set up shop in Ontario. It won't take 10 years for jobs to be created.
Justin Tetreault 11/9/2009 2:51:03 PM Report

"Justin--Here is another one for you to chew on---HAIRCUTS will go up another
$ 1---How can we avoid a haircut even if we cut down on our spending---That $1 will be only for the extra taxes--The Barbers could raise their own rates on top of that--Barbers usually raise their rates about once a year to make up for the extra costs of their supplies---which will also cost more because of the H.S.T."

"Here's another one for all you Greyhound Fans---Next year your tickets will go up another $1 per game just for the H.S.T.---who knows how much the Greyhounds will raise them on top of that."

Nice red herring but if barbers or the Greyhounds decide to raise their prices, it has nothing to do with the HST.

Plus, why would barber supplies cost any more under the HST? Shampoo, scissors, hair products, etc are already subject to the PST, so the HST changes nothing.

Additionally, with all of the savings that businesses are going to get from the HST, I'd say it is just as likely, if not more likely that we will see prices come down a bit.
Crabs 11/9/2009 3:34:55 PM Report

Oldie: I think ya pissed off the wee Justin.
jacquie 11/9/2009 4:12:41 PM Report

It appears that it doesn't take much to pee of Justin. If any word against the beloved Liberals is uttered, he gets on the defensive........
Oldie Goldie 11/9/2009 4:55:52 PM Report

Justin---I'll use your quote
"Shampoo, Hair Products, scissors etc. already has P.S.T. on them "

Yes Justin that is correct except that the G.S.T. will be added to those things when the H.S.T. starts.

I guess you didn't read my posting when I said that the things that now have, only, G.S.T., will now have the P.S.T. added----AND---the things that have, only, P.S.T., will have the G.S.T. added
to those things.

That's why the Feds are giving McGuinty Billions of dollars---so that they can add their G.S.T. to many more items that only had P.S.T. before.

Haircuts and Essar Tickets did not have both taxes added before but they will be next year.
Oldie Goldie 11/9/2009 5:00:12 PM Report

Justin---I truly b elieve that you think that only the P.S.T. will be expanded with the H.S.T. but you are forgetting that the H.S.T. is a 2 way street---The Feds will now add their G.S.T to a lot more things.

That's what Harmonizing means---joining 2 together and it works 2 ways not just 1 way.
Oldie Goldie 11/9/2009 5:57:24 PM Report

Justin--4 out of 5 is not a bad average---I remember Nova Scotia and New Brunswick going with the H.S.T. but I can't recall when Newfoundland went to the H.S.T.

I guess that's why Newfoundland is now a HAVE Province and Ontario is now a HAVE NOT Province after McGuinty took over.

Your comments would not be too bad but your average is far from 4 out of 5.

The National Coalition of Canadian Taxpayers says that the H.S.T. will be bad for Ontario Taxpayers and for B.C. Taxpayers but you can stick with the Calgary Report if it suits your way of thinking.

When a Liberal starts to help Businesses at the expense of the Taxpayer he is more like a good Conservative.
Perhaps you will switch when push comes to shove, Justin, you are young yet and have a lot to learn.

But, on second thought, the Conservatives would not accept you anytime soon after you betrayed one of your best Conservative friends.

By the way, Justin, when did the Soo Chamber of Commerce come out in support of the H.S.T.?
I follow their Monthly Reports and have not seen any comment from them about the H.S.T. as of yet.
Perhaps they are content to let the Ontario Chamber speak for them---what a cop out !
Oldie Goldie 11/9/2009 6:00:11 PM Report

Justin---If an Oldtimer like me can offer you some advice----Don't hold your breath waiting for businesses to pass along their savings by lowering their prices after the H.S.T. starts.
Justin Tetreault 11/9/2009 6:20:27 PM Report

"Justin---I'll use your quote
"Shampoo, Hair Products, scissors etc. already has P.S.T. on them "

Yes Justin that is correct except that the G.S.T. will be added to those things when the H.S.T. starts."

Not true. They have both the PST and GST already.

I'm not sure if you are making things up or are really just that clueless.
Oldie Goldie 11/9/2009 6:21:45 PM Report

Justin---I was just re-reading your original post for this session and your last sentence says that
" Ontario is joining the majority of the Provinces who have the H.S.T. "

To my knowledge there are only 4 Provinces who have implemented the H.S.T. and they are all Eastern Provinces---that is a long ways from " joining the majority " as you have said.

You see, Justin, I am watching you closely and you have already made several errors in your comments.
Oldie Goldie 11/9/2009 6:24:54 PM Report

Justin---You were the one who said that the P.S.T. was already on Barbers supplies---You never said that those supplies had G.S.T. and P.S.T until I checked you up.
Justin Tetreault 11/9/2009 6:30:11 PM Report

Because it is so obvious that GST was on it that I didn't think I had to say it. There are almost no exceptions to the GST. And most, if not all GST exempt products are also PST exempt.

Can you name a single thing right now that is only taxed PST and not GST?

The HST is not going to result in GST being added to some products.
KDawg 11/9/2009 8:45:52 PM Report

"Can you name a single thing right now that is only taxed PST and not GST?"

Insurance -- and that's significant for both consumers and business.

That's a nice quid pro quo for the "incentive" provided by the feds to Ontario.
Justin Tetreault 11/9/2009 10:49:46 PM Report

""Can you name a single thing right now that is only taxed PST and not GST?"

Insurance -- and that's significant for both consumers and business.

That's a nice quid pro quo for the "incentive" provided by the feds to Ontario."

Automobile insurance is not subject to the PST currently and will not be subject to the HST.
http://www.mondaq.com/article.asp?articleid=77210

And other types of insurance that are subject to the PST will retain the 8% PST and not be subject to the HST.
http://www.us.kpmg.com/microsite/TNF-Americas/2009/TNA09_13Canada.html
Justin Tetreault 11/9/2009 11:03:11 PM Report

Another link. This one from Rod Butcher, certified general accountant and tax expert with Brendan Moore & Associates.

"Home insurance will remain taxable at a special 8% rate for Ontario, but auto insurance will remain exempt."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/how-will-hst-affect-you/article1305808/

KDawg 11/10/2009 6:22:11 AM Report

And yet, talking to my insurance agent directly, more recently than June or September, when I asked them whether the HST will apply to property insurance (yes auto insurance is exempt from the PST), their answer is "I don't know."
learningaswego 11/10/2009 9:00:16 AM Report

Libs get throttled in the by-elections.
Another FAILURE of Iggy's so-called "leadership".
Sam C 11/10/2009 9:21:17 AM Report

Oldie... when the HST comes in, will the cost of parking meters go UP, or will we just get 2 fewer minutes for our Loonie?
Justin Tetreault 11/10/2009 10:06:27 AM Report

Maybe you need a better insurance agent then Kdawg.
Oldie Goldie 11/10/2009 12:29:20 PM Report

Sam C. I will not dignify your smart ass comment about Parking Meters with a response.

You must have changed your ways lately---I don't remember you being a smart ass when you first started your own Column.
Oldie Goldie 11/10/2009 12:41:48 PM Report

KDawg has hit the nail on the head---McGuinty has never been straight forward with what will and what will not have added taxes under the H.S.T.

Justin--I think that Greyhound Tickets have only P.S.T. now---thus the comment from London about the London Knight Tickets that you so rudely disputed.

If those Tickets have only P.S.T. now---then the G.S.T. will be added under the H.S.T.

There is still the comments from some Ontario Economists that the H.S.T. will add $ 2150 per year to the budget of a 4 person average family.- that you so conveniently dismiss as " Rumors "

You can pick and choose what Reports you will believe---that is classic Liberal Style-- but I will believe Ontario Economists before I believe any report from Calgary.
Crabs 11/10/2009 12:49:37 PM Report

I think that the Liberals will cram this HST down our throats this year and give us a little breather. Next year they will see what they can get away with. The HST is just the thin edge of the wedge for McGuinty.
Justin Tetreault 11/10/2009 3:09:02 PM Report

"Justin--I think that Greyhound Tickets have only P.S.T. now---thus the comment from London about the London Knight Tickets that you so rudely disputed.

If those Tickets have only P.S.T. now---then the G.S.T. will be added under the H.S.T."

Wrong. They have GST now, not PST. There is nothing that is going to have extra GST added.

The HST only applies to items that were already taxed GST. If something was not charged GST, it won't be charged HST.

For some things only charged GST (like books), the GST will remain. For some things that were only charged PST (like home insurance), the PST will remain.
Oldie Goldie 11/10/2009 4:34:38 PM Report

Justin---What you are trying to tell me is that there really won't be any H.S.T. on many things and that is where we disagree----Examples:

If Greyhound tickets have only G.S.T. now as you say--- you are telling me that the P.S.T. will not be added---How is that Harmonization ?

If Home Insurance has only P.S.T. now and the G.S.T. will not be added---How is that Harmonization ?

So what you are saying is that the H.S.T. will not be H.S.T. and that's where we disagree.

By the way, Justin, I am still waiting for your response to the increase for sick seniors in Nursing Homes---I was told by a Nursing Home Supervisor that, indeed, under the H.S.T. the daily rate for Nursing Homes will go up another
$ 1.50 per day---or $ 45 per month ---or
$ 540 per year and they will not be exempt from that increase.

I may not have all my facts straight but neither have you, Justin.

You may have found some errors in my statements but I, and others, have found errors in your statements too----You were wrong on the Gas prices---You were wrong in your statement that Ontario will join the majority of Provinces who already have the H.S.T. and, perhaps, many of your rebuttals are coming direct from Liberal Party Hdqts.
Sam C 11/10/2009 4:54:18 PM Report

Oldie... you're the one crowing about increases of one dollar in tax paid on goods.
Oldie Goldie 11/10/2009 4:58:01 PM Report

Sam C. Multiply that $1 by 5,000,000 consumers and you know what you will get into Ontario Gov't. Tax pockets.
Sam C 11/10/2009 5:03:38 PM Report

That would be $5 million to put toward the deficit, wouldn't it?

You're right, Oldie... I usually refrain from making smart-ass remarks. Sometimes, though, it's just too hard to resist.
Crabs 11/10/2009 5:22:37 PM Report

Maybe McGuinty could put that against the never-ending Hydro debt. That should be paid off just about the time Hell freezes over.
Oldie Goldie 11/10/2009 5:37:55 PM Report

Sam C. Quit trying to degrade me-- I have been around this town and involved in many of the activities and it's politics for a lot longer than you and I don't need any advice from you or smart ass remarks like " sometimes it is too hard to resist "

If that is the way you teach your students---either in driving or in School you will not last long at your professions.

I, usually, treat everyone with respect and read and listen to their comments even if I don't agree with them but you are a unique ---one of a kind--smart ass when you try to degrade someone else for their thoughts.

Why even Justin treats me with more respect than you do and he and I disagree on a lot of things but I respect his thoughts even if I try to see his defects.
Justin Tetreault 11/10/2009 5:57:26 PM Report

"If Greyhound tickets have only G.S.T. now as you say--- you are telling me that the P.S.T. will not be added---How is that Harmonization ?

If Home Insurance has only P.S.T. now and the G.S.T. will not be added---How is that Harmonization ?"

Where did I say that Greyhound tickets won't be subject to the PST?

It is harmonization because the PST is being added to things that only had GST (with a few exceptions where the PST still won't be added).

It is the PST that is harmonizing with the GST, not the other way around. The PST is adopting the GST's rules for what is taxable (with exceptions) and they are being collected together. The GST is not changing their rules, so if things were not subject to the GST, they still will not be subject to it when the HST comes in. The PST rules still apply in those cases (like home insurance).
Oldie Goldie 11/10/2009 5:58:57 PM Report

Justin---You are only complicating what is contained in the H.S.T. when you make comments like these:

" Nothing is going to have G.S.T. added "

" If something was not charged G.S.T. it won't be charged H.S.T.

" For some things only charged G.S.T. the P.S.T. will not be added "

You have already agreed that the P.S.T. will be added to Home Repairs which only had G.S.T. before.

You said that Hockey Tickets had only G.S.T. but the P.S.T. will be added---otherwise where is the Harmonization ?

Gasoline had both P.S.T. and G.S.T. but the P.S.T. was a fixed rate and the G.S.T. rises as the prices rises and you already know that the P.S.T. will also rise with the price increase of gasoline with the H.S.T.

I heard all the things that you are saying now about the H.S.T. when Mulroney brought in the G.S.T.---

The G.S.T. will be revenue-neutral

Prices will come down after the G.S.T.

Both those thing did not come true

McGuinty is saying most of the same things now about the H.S.T. and you are supporting his statements.

I happen to disagree---I don't believe that the H.S.T. will be revenue-neutral and I don't believe that any prices will fall-- I am going with History and you are going with McGuinty's promises.

I don't need to tell you how many promises that McGuinty has already broken
Sam C 11/11/2009 9:51:50 AM Report

No, Oldie... I don't try to "degrade" anyone simply because I disagree with their comments (I cannot disagree with anyone's "thoughts").

But when what should have been a discussion turns into a protracted harrangue on your part, and when you continue despite having the examples you present refuted by a number of other posters as incorrect, I admit that I have given into temptation and thrown a few "smart-ass" remarks your way.

On the other hand, you denounce almost every comment I make as "smart ass remarks," and you insult me and question my teaching abilities simply because I disagree with your statements.

Where's the respect, there?

Perhaps we should just agree to disagree, and acknowledge the futility of trying to engage in any debate.
Sam C 11/11/2009 9:54:18 AM Report

GST/HST Facts & Information

http://tinyurl.com/Tax-Harmonization
Oldie Goldie 11/11/2009 10:15:07 AM Report

Sam C.---You've gotten my last remarks on this topic but I will continue to mention things that will cost Ontario Taxpayers extra money for no extra services---I may have been refuted on some of them but many of them have not been refuted too.

I lose some but I gain some too.
Oldie Goldie 11/11/2009 1:33:13 PM Report

Sam C. Seldom does Justin comment in another column.

Seldom does Mac. H. respond in another Column

But you Sam C. make comments in every column and even try to answer some of the questions that are directed at Justin and/or Mac---

I am quite sure that Mac and Justin can make their own responses in their columns without you answering for them.

By the way--I tried to access the site you gave me to see what is contained in the H.S.T. but I could not access it.

I will continue to get my questions answered directly from the GOVERNMENT SITE.

Please stop answering any questions that I put to Justin---he handles himself very well.
Sam C 11/11/2009 2:05:59 PM Report

"Sam C.---You've gotten my last remarks on this topic..."

Hmm. Apparently not, Oldie.


As for answering questions you put to others, am I the only one who does that? Is not the purpose of a public forum such as this to allow ANYONE an opportunity to engage in a discussion?

Have you not done likewise, yourself?

I was not aware that YOU could decide who may or may not participate in an open discussion.

By the way, that "tiny url" link WAS to the government website, and it should work if you cut-and-paste it directly into your browser's address bar.

However, here is the link to the start page for the Canada Revenue Agency: from there you can find accurate information on GST and HST issues.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca

mvnnth 11/11/2009 3:33:16 PM Report

“What services are the public demanding more of, exactly? And don't confuse that with the public demanding that the government stop eroding current services and wasting money (most recent example being the eHealth debacle).”

This was question/comment that appeared a few days ago and it caught my attention because it’s one I often wish I could ask, of someone in government, myself. I think I know that the question was begging an answer and that answer would be “nothing”. But wait, is that really true. We might not be asking for more but it is surely expected that there will be more and more and more. The latest contract negotiations with the teachers’ unions led to a settlement that would see an increase in wages of over 10% (actually it was closer to 15%) over the life of the contract. Where the heck is that money going to come from if it isn’t higher taxes. The alternative is, of course, cuts to other government services and no one wants that. I don’t think we need to worry about asking for “more” when it comes to educating our children. Remember when the battle was on over class sizes? The unions were going to bat for our children and, make no mistake, they were going to improve the quality of education for this generation of students even if it meant striking their employer (read you and me). All this in the face of declining enrollment at all grade levels in this part of Ontario. No, don’t worry about asking for more of anything from government, someone else stands ready to ask for you. Some of us would like to have it both ways, more services but less tax. We can do it. All we have to do is borrow! Sure, that ought to do it.

As to eHealth and the like. That seems to be what usually happens when government tries to run a business. Health care (which is BIG business) is the perfect example. Get the business sector involved now, we can’t afford anymore nonsense like this.

mvnnth 11/11/2009 3:34:37 PM Report

“What services are the public demanding more of, exactly? And don't confuse that with the public demanding that the government stop eroding current services and wasting money (most recent example being the eHealth debacle).”

This was question/comment that appeared a few days ago and it caught my attention because it’s one I often wish I could ask, of someone in government, myself. I think I know that the question was begging an answer and that answer would be “nothing”. But wait, is that really true. We might not be asking for more but it is surely expected that there will be more and more and more. The latest contract negotiations with the teachers’ unions led to a settlement that would see an increase in wages of over 10% (actually it was closer to 15%) over the life of the contract. Where the heck is that money going to come from if it isn’t higher taxes. The alternative is, of course, cuts to other government services and no one wants that. I don’t think we need to worry about asking for “more” when it comes to educating our children. Remember when the battle was on over class sizes? The unions were going to bat for our children and, make no mistake, they were going to improve the quality of education for this generation of students even if it meant striking their employer (read you and me). All this in the face of declining enrollment at all grade levels in this part of Ontario. No, don’t worry about asking for more of anything from government, someone else stands ready to ask for you. Some of us would like to have it both ways, more services but less tax. We can do it. All we have to do is borrow! Sure, that ought to do it.

As to eHealth and the like. That seems to be what usually happens when government tries to run a business. Health care (which is BIG business) is the perfect example. Get the business sector involved now, we can’t afford anymore nonsense like this.

Prevost 11/12/2009 5:44:18 AM Report

Oldie Goldie, are you trying to project yourself as an ancient guru of some kind? Your act is getting ancient, that's for sure. I'm at least as old as you and probably older but I refuse to go into the "you owe me respect because I'm retired and old" routine like so many others, such as yourself, do. Open your eyes and ears and shut your mouth occasionally and you just might learn something. If someone disagrees with you, accept their opinion gracefully and quit the rants about "smartass" whatever. You sound like a whiny kid who can't get his way.
Justin Tetreault 11/12/2009 10:47:48 AM Report

This just in:

Food under $4, coffee, and newspapers are now exempt from the HST and will continue to only be charged GST.

http://tinyurl.com/OldieSecretlyLovesTheHST
Oldie Goldie 11/12/2009 1:05:20 PM Report

Prevost---You and Sam C. must be related.
I have read your advice and since I respect my elders I will accept your advice if you are 77 years old or older.
But I doubt you are that old.
Oldie Goldie 11/12/2009 1:08:47 PM Report

Justin---When you say those things are
"now " exempt then they must not have been exempt before.
Perhaps the opposition from many Ontario Citizens is working.
Thanks for the new info.
Oldie Goldie 11/12/2009 2:43:46 PM Report

Justin---I do appreciate that the Liberals are listening but the newly added exemptions are very small items in the overall additions to the H.S.T.

Opposers need to keep up their complaints until the Liberals start to exempt some major things like Home Repairs and Event tickets like those at the Essar Centre including an exemption for Greyhound Tickets and Big Event shows.

There is still another 7 months before the Legislation is passed.

Pressure needs to be continued,also, on Retailers to pass along the savings to the Consumers. There is no guarantee that this will happen.
mvnnth 11/12/2009 3:46:15 PM Report

Here I am, same computer, different browser and everything appears normal. Go figure.
Oldie Goldie 11/12/2009 5:25:35 PM Report

Prevost---Sam C. even agreed that his remarks were of the " Smart Ass " variety--why are you complaining ?--Sam C. is the only one I said that to because his rebuttal was asinine about the Parking Meters.
Sam C 11/12/2009 7:03:48 PM Report

You're too much, Oldie!
Prevost 11/13/2009 9:41:19 AM Report

Oldie Goldie, you will never have to worry about hurting your back carrying that brain of yours.
Oldie Goldie 11/13/2009 12:31:56 PM Report

Prevost---again, if you are 77 or older I will respect your advice because I always respect my elders.

Snide comments about me doesn't hurt.
I have been called lots of things in my lifetime.

You are like many other posters on this site---If you can't attack the message--then--attack the messenger.
Oldie Goldie 11/13/2009 2:57:14 PM Report

Justin---Thank you for the lead-in to that site--I have read it and here is one sentence found there :

" Taxes will increase on Gasoline---Home Heating Fuel---Taxis---Legal Services---Golf Green Fees and hundreds of other items "

You can include in thosed " hundreds" of other items---Nursing Home Fees---Home Repairs---Greyhound Tickets---Tickets to Special Events at the Essar Centre.

So,as I said before, exempting Coffee and Donuts--and--Newspaper Subscription Fees and prepared food under $ 4 is a miniscule part of the extra taxes with the H.S.T.

It also says that McGuinty will lose about $ 500 Million just on these miniscule things---Just imagine how much they will get from the bigger ticket items.
mvnnth 11/14/2009 4:32:43 PM Report

"So,as I said before, exempting Coffee and Donuts--and--Newspaper Subscription Fees and prepared food under $ 4 is a miniscule part of the extra taxes with the H.S.T.

It also says that McGuinty will lose about $ 500 Million just on these miniscule things"

If these numbers are correct then, by extrapolation, it figures that we are spending around $6 billion on our morning coffee and the like. We should be ashamed of ourselves.
Oldie Goldie 11/14/2009 5:41:13 PM Report

mvnnth--Those were quotes right from the Ontario Gov't figures.

You are right mvnnth--just go to any Tim Horton's between 7 A.M. and 9 A.M. and see how many people are there and how many cars are in line for the take-out.

Yes we ought to be ashamed of our eating-out habits---It appears as though very few people eat at home--at least for breakfast anyway.

The Coffee shops are full at lunch time too.
learningaswego 11/16/2009 10:44:28 AM Report

"ashamed" of our eating out habits???
You're kidding, right? For starters, how about the thousands of jobs our awful eating out habits creates at Tim Hortons and other stores?
2tuff4u 11/16/2009 4:56:44 PM Report

Orazietti has done plenty for this community but if the H.S.T. comes in we should ALL vote for another party just to protest the H.S.T.
mvnnth 11/17/2009 11:49:01 AM Report


""ashamed" of our eating out habits???
You're kidding, right? For starters, how about the thousands of jobs our awful eating out habits creates at Tim Hortons and other stores?"
Isn't it a bit of a stretch to refer to a <$4.00 tab as "eating out"? Paying an outrageous amount for a coffee which, collectively, adds up to a good part of $6 billion dollars a year may not be shameful but it certainly is an atrocious waste of money. If we took a few more minutes at home, and brewed our own, we would save enough to pay the increase in taxes, that some fear, and have a few bucks left over. The "jobs" created in these places aren't productive enough to permit compensation that could be called a living wage and are mostly remunerated at, or close to, minimum wage.
Canada seems like one of the few places that you can find a proliferation of these "coffee shops". I have often wondered why that is.
learningaswego 11/18/2009 1:08:31 PM Report

On the current state of the Liberal Party of Canada - a.k.a. the mother of all political train wrecks; let's see if we have this right, shall we?
Instead of the Liberal party members electing Iggy to the leader's chair, as is the usual democratic process, a handful of Liberal elitists - probably the same ones that went out and plucked Iggy from foreign lands, have virtually installed him as leader. Therefore, it's fair to say it's highly questionable if even most Liberals want Iggy as the leader. It is now completely clear, however, that Canadians don't care a bit for Iggy, noting in poll upon poll upon poll, that he is a carpetbagger, and carpetbaggers are not welcome to the highest job in the land. Now, the Liberal brain trust has decided that the solution to this dilemma is, because Iggy has proven to be so unpopular, that they will hire a bunch of very high-priced people, at a cost probably exceeding a million dollars a year from Liberal party finances, to try to "rebrand" Iggy, in to something besides what he really is - a silver-spoon fed, ivory-tower academic, and an elitist carpetbagger. So, essentially, instead of cleaning out the REAL problem in the OLO - Iggy himself, they are going to try to rebrand Iggy, and think they can fool the Canadian public.

Well, what else can be said but: "good luck with that." LOL
Oh, and I'm sure the Liberal Party supporters who donate money, are simply thrilled with this use of their funds.
Sam C 11/18/2009 2:09:21 PM Report

learning... I got a laugh from the article posted on the CTV news website -- there was a line near the end that described the problem:

"Many Liberals blamed the party's poor fortunes in recent months on the inexperienced staff who had been advising Ignatieff."

Apparently many Liberals either don't or won't blame Iggy... for now.
Prevost 11/18/2009 4:10:40 PM Report

learningaswego, what they need to do is dump Iggy and bring back one of these:

1. Dion (the Disaster)

2. Bob (Rae Days)

3. Justin Trudeau (can't find him; he's out trying to nail jello to a tree)

4. Gerard Kennedy (the kingmaker; remember him?)

5. Martha Finlay-Hall or Hall-Finlay (whatever)

6. Paul Martin (Mr. Dithers)

Or just hang on with Iggy. It probably wouldn't make a whole lot of difference.
learningaswego 11/20/2009 1:17:58 PM Report

This just in - Iggy the Carpetbagger, has now exceeded the Dithering Dingbat Dion's record, of dragging down the once great Liberal Party. Today's Angus Reid Poll, of voter support:

Liberals 23%

Yes, you read that right, 23%.

And, instead of changing the leader - which anyone with an ounce of common sense can see is THE problem, the Libs are changing the high-priced spinmeisters surrounding Lord Iggy.

It's enough to make even a former Liberal voter weep, I tell you.
Sam C 11/20/2009 4:44:04 PM Report

learning... its kinda like a struggling hockey team firing the players and keeping the coach, isn't it?

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